Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 329 total)
  • Should Froome race in the TDF before his AAF is sorted?
  • mildred
    Full Member

    mike – that is correct which is why the threshold is set at such a high level.  a level that normal inhalor use would never get close to is my understanding.

    TJ, I’m not sure that’s correct:

    However the actual upper limit is based on clinical guidelines from manufacturers, not specific anti-doping research.

    This from the above link:

    http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4053/salbutamol-can-be-performance-enhancing-says-wada

    Onviously because use it’s a hot topic it’s in all the cycling news & media, but I’d urge everyone to look a level deeper. For instance some of the several studies that show an “anabolic steroid” like effect also go on to highlight an increase in “fatiguability”, which describes a decrease in cardiovascular function/efficiency. Basically, they seem to describe an increase in muscle mass along with an associated increase in maximum force generated from the muscle (both fast & slow twitch rat muscle), yet causes you to get more tired more quickly. Does this sound like a benefit for a top level grand tour contender?

    i don’t think there is a problem with him racing, but I do have a big problem with the guilty before proven innocent.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    but normal inhaler dosing cannot get anywhere near the levels he showed.

    Right but Froome isn’t normal, and he’s not using it in a normal situation doing a normal activity.

    H1ghland3r
    Free Member

    yet causes you to get more tired more quickly.

    I’d certainly agree with that based on my experience, when on either tablets or nebuliser it was difficult to even stay awake never mind function in any meaningful way..  difficult to isolate whether it was down to the drug or the fact that my bronchi had closed up to the size of uncooked threadnoodles though.!  🙂

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    molgrips
    Free Member

    Also, why on earth would you take this drug to increase muscle mass?  He’s very clearly training hard and eating the bare minimum to support that – a few more pies would probably stick far more muscle on him.  He’s in the TdF not Mr Universe.

    H1ghland3r
    Free Member

    Also, why on earth would you take this drug to increase muscle mass? He’s very clearly training hard and eating the bare minimum to support that – a few more pies would probably stick far more muscle on him. He’s in the TdF not Mr Universe.

    😀

    I think the contention is that it aids in the development of lean muscle mass along with weight loss, lean muscle mass is exactly what a cyclist is trying to develop during long training programs. Essentially it improves the benefits to the muscles of endurance training.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    Butcher – I think athletics is now much cleaner than cycling with a much tougher testing regieme

    Why do you think that TJ? I’m curious. And are you talking about at the national or international level?

    Because… ‘Track and field’s governing body spends about £1.3m a year on anti-doping, whereas its cycling equivalent spends closer to £6m, although much of that comes from the professional teams as a condition of their licences to race in UCI competitions, and race organisers.’

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/33898614

    I can’t really find any evidence that athletics is ‘cleaner’ than cycling. Cycling seems to spend more on anti doping internationally. And by definition. we never know how many athletes or cyclists are getting away with using PEDs.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    “I’m still not convinced that the published ‘use case’ for doping Salbutamol fits into a race doping scenario. In order to build lean muscle mass, you need the kind of recovery periods and lower intensity training regime that just don’t exist in a race, let alone a Grand Tour..!?  Am I misunderstanding how it works.?”

    I think your understanding is correct.

    But how long does Salbutamol stay in the system for? That’s what I was alluding to.

    Bottom line: we know very little, but what we do know is enough to cause suspicion. Previous cases of this drug & Sky’s own shady history is surely enough to convince anyone of that!

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Why do you think that TJ? I’m curious. And are you talking about at the national or international level?

    It’s a well trusted technique, say it with confidence and skip the providing any evidence….

    But how long does Salbutamol stay in the system for? That’s what I was alluding to.

    Bottom line: we know very little, but what we do know is enough to cause suspicion. Previous cases of this drug & Sky’s own shady history is surely enough to convince anyone of that!

    True it is a question, though as the levels were normal on previous tests in that tour – probably daily how did this lump dislodge and appear as a spike? If we don’t know how long it is retained for and how it leaves the body in a reliable way then you have done Sky/Froome’s Job for them as the test is not representative of what they take in.

    fergal
    Free Member

    I’m really looking forward to TJ eating humble pie, when he has to make a public apology.

    Yep he should race, inocent until proven guilty.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    BWD – MIke – ” I think”  ie its an opinion.  OK maybe british track and field given what others say about some countries.  Out of season testing seems more rigorous.  I did have quite a ponder about which sports and came to the conclusion track and field would be the only possible one.  ~rugby for example has a massive issue and less rigorous testing – not so much at top level but at youth level where there is little testing but that muscle bulk is with them for their career.  Very few pros fail but anecdotally its a huge issue with those wanting to get to the top level

    Molgrips – its not just a bit more than normal usage – its a huge amount more by my understanding.  its not a few more puffs or a bit slower exctrting it.    I am not at all convinced by the “he excretes it slower” arguement.  Are his kidneys fubared?

    Its all opinion and surmise from either side.  We simply do not know about Froome.

    I have my opinions, others have theirs.  None of us actually know.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    Either way mike we don’t know enough to equivocally say he’s innocent or guilty. He is, as they say, a person of interest….

    Innocent till proven guilty? Yes, because that’s the way justice should work.

    Should he ride? No.

    Why? I just think the smart move would be not too. Too many very grey areas on this one for me. Past cases, Sky’s history..

    And until there’s evidence either exonerating him or damning him I will retain my current level of doubt….

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    Read this – more BS from Sky. Apparently a secret new drink helped Froom on Finestre.

    New???

    The research into this secret new weapon came out in 2005 & I know of at least one company who’ve been selling their energy drink in this exact same formula for over a decade!!

    F me, I’d have more time for Sky et al if they didn’t try to peddle such crap:

    http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4829/the-new-sis-product-claimed-to-be-behind-froomes-finestre-success

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Innocent till proven guilty? Yes, because that’s the way justice should work.

    Should he ride? No.

    All those with an AAF to be banned then?

    F me, I’d have more time for Sky et al if they didn’t try to peddle such crap:

    Yeah, just advertising though isn’t it, SIS want something in exchange for their cash

    nickc
    Full Member

    Out of season testing seems more rigorous

    Many UK athletes have been on national radio to tell everyone how to game the UK anti doping system. In the words of one guy I listening to “You’d have to want to get caught to get caught.” and in another interview there were several UK athletes explaining how to make the system more rigorous; extend the 3 strikes and you’re out system, change the procedures around the unannounced testing and so on. The general consensus was that it’s very easy to get away with doping in athletics

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    “Yeah, just advertising though isn’t it, SIS want something in exchange for their cash”

    It’s a complete & utter lie though – easily provable too. I’m sorry Sky built their image on integrity & being clean…..& when you can shoot holes big enough to drive a bus through in their “marginal gains” tactics. Well, they’ve parted ways with the true meaning of integrity for me!

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    BWD – MIke – ” I think”  ie its an opinion.

    Cool, just checking you didn’t have anything like actual evidence or owt like that.

    fergal
    Free Member

    You just come across as bitter and twisted with an axe to grind, Sky are a souless mega corp, i get this, Froome on the other hand comes across as a guy with integrity, i just can’t see why he would cheat, he has nothing to gain, i ‘m willing to give him a chance on this one.

    If he is cleared you guys will still think it is a big conspiracy, good luck with that.

    warton
    Free Member

    No he shouldn’t race, it’s a farce.

    greta article here, that casts various doubts on his story….

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/ewan-mackenna-so-how-is-it-then-that-you-explain-a-freak-like-chris-froome-36968940.html

    fergal
    Free Member

    Another opinion piece, nothing like jumping on the bandwagon… the plot thickens eh?

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    Bitter & twisted? As if….

    But having been through Festina & Postal…..I call foul on Sky. If one took time to think it through the similarities are stark & obvious,

    Remember LA could be charming & what an asshole he turned out to be!

    H1ghland3r
    Free Member

    Molgrips – its not just a bit more than normal usage – its a huge amount more by my understanding. its not a few more puffs or a bit slower exctrting it.

    I just had a look at my inhaler and the dosage is 100microgrammes per puff..  I can certainly remember instances of taking several 3 puff doses in a few hours (like 2-3) in order to keep symptoms under control, so that’s approx. 6-900microgrammes in the space of a couple of hours. With that in mind I can certainly envisage circumstances where I could easily get up to the alleged 1600ish over an 8 hour period.

    Now obviously that’s a huge approximation, but saying that the dosage is ‘massively’ above what could be gained by inhaler alone is possibly a bit of a misnomer. Once again, this is just drawing from my own experiences.

    Not to mention that obviously Sky and Froome have already explicitly said they didn’t exceed the allowed number of inhaler doses during the day..

    tjagain
    Full Member

    HIghlandrer – I doubt you get the full 100microgrammes and also it does not get into your bloodstream in the same way.

    Nebulisers are 2.5 milligrammes or 5 mg that I see used ( again much will be wasted).  tablets are IIRC 5 mg and 10 mg.  taken every 4 hours for both  dunno the IV dosage

    the 1600 figure is the amount in his urine and again IIRC its picogrammes per litre.  correct me if I am wrong

    Again its only my understanding but the to get to the max permitted level is much higher dosage than the sort of dosage you are talking about.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    So ultimately what’s the answer? No TUEs? No inhalers?

    H1ghland3r
    Free Member

    HIghlandrer – I doubt you get the full 100microgrammes and also it does not get into your bloodstream in the same way.

    Yeah that’s what I was thinking, hence the caveats. 🙂

    I don’t think you can ban the use of these sorts of medications outright as it would effect so many athletes. Regardless of your opinions on how honest athletes are being I think it’s well accepted that exercise induced asthma is a very common thing and likely to get moreso going forward as air quality generally decreases.

    Add into that, the need to use these kinds of medications for things like certain hayfevers which may only effect someone in certain locations at certain times of year and it’s not really practical to say that if you have any need for these medications you shouldn’t be competing otherwise you could feasibly end up with entire squads being unable to take part in certain races.

    Imagine having 1/3 of the TdF field having to drop out because the route went to a certain area of the S. of france in July and they all came down with untreatable hayfever.!?

    ugarizza
    Free Member

    It will be a brave ride if he does do it. The crowd will go at him from day 1.

    The easy thing to do would be hide.

    He’s a hero, we should be behind him.

    He should most definitely ride.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Perfectly happy for inhalers to be used and a maximum level prescribed that is generous.  Over the max level strict liability should apply.

    TUEs – must be a neutral doctor.

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    we should be behind him

    The way I ride there is no way I’d be in front of him.

    aP
    Free Member

    Remember LA could be charming & what an asshole he turned out to be!

    did you not read his first book all the signs were there. I got lots of abuse from from others when I questioned the psychopath- all the way from after his first TdF – and I was right. I admit I believed Floyd Landis – but Froome is either a fantastic actor or he’s straight. I would veer towards straight.

    metalheart
    Free Member

    How’s about the circle jerk fanboys keep to their cleanz thread and leave us dirty haterz in peace.

    every time a true believer starts posting he’s not a doper pish on this thread I’m going drop a dopeage turd in the other.

    You can’t have it both ways, and you can’t say you’ve not been warned.

    theres no way he came from getting kicked off the team to almost winning the vuelta by ‘just losing the fat’. Every other time a miraculous transformation is was always due to the same thing. Dope.

    the reason he hasn’t been kicked of the tour is sky have the money to sue ASO’s arse off. They don’t want him their, it’s their race and they don’t buy it (and neither do i).

    Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I’ll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!

    tjagain
    Full Member

    How’s about the circle jerk fanboys keep to their cleanz thread and leave us dirty haterz in peace.

    every time a true believer starts posting he’s not a doper pish on this thread I’m going drop a dopeage turd in the other.

    You can’t have it both ways, and you can’t say you’ve not been warned.

    🙂

    greyspoke
    Free Member

    So metal,  you dont just want separate threads for separate topics,  you want each point of view in a discussion to have its own thread.  It’s novel, I’ll say that for it.  But that would make two threads for this one.  Then the thread about the race, blimey how many different views there, we’d need a thread for Froome supporters, a thread for Bardet supporters…  Are you sure this is practical?

    swanny853
    Full Member

    You can’t have it both ways, and you can’t say you’ve not been warned

    In fairness, wasn’t this supposed to be the Froome/doping discussion thread so the other one was general race chat? So pro and anti Froome comments both appropriate here?

    Being honestly, sceptically undecided on the matter I’ve got to say the ‘true believers’ are coming off a lot better than the hardened sceptics.

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    kcr
    Free Member

    i just can’t see why he would cheat, he has nothing to gain

    No, it’s difficult to see what motive multi millionaire, world famous winner Froome would have for cheating.

    These discussions always go round in the same circles, because none of us actually have inside knowledge about what Froome has or has not done.

    The only significant facts at the moment are that Froome has returned a Salbutamol result that is well in excess of the permitted amount, and so far, he has not explained how that happened. We just have to wait and see how the case progresses. I understand the breach of confidentiality in the original leak, but the positive thing about that is that this case is going to be publicly scrutinised,  not buried quietly.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    I’ll be very interested to see what happens with the nay-sayers if Froome is found innocent, will they then accept that verdict ? Or will there still be animosity towards both Sky and Froome ?

    I personally have no idea what will happen here, but as with most, i’m very curious to know the answer.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    and so far, he has not explained how that happened

    Has he not ? Are you sure ? Based upon what ? He may have explained it in the 1500 page report.

    weeksy
    Full Member
    metalheart
    Free Member

    The 1500 page report will be the sky juggernaut lawyer overload trying to establish a chink in the defence, anything that will scare the UCI into not being able to ban the doper because they’ve the money and will to pursue them under restraint of trade. That’s how big corporations work. You will bend to their will.

    all the lawyers need to do is establish enough doubt that it might not be, you know, the dope with the implied threat ban us and we’ll sue and once again the dopers win.

    **** weasels the lot of them.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I’ll be very interested to see what happens with the nay-sayers if Froome is found innocent, will they then accept that verdict ?

    What you needed to ask ? See metal hearts expert assessment of the evidence there.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I’ll be very interested to see what happens with the nay-sayers if Froome is found innocent,

    Nuttin’  After all, Armstrong never tested positive, etc etc

Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 329 total)

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