me too.

i cant blame anyone for believing it to be harmless fun.

I think this is also a poor message to send out
Like alcohol or gambling many will be fine – the vast majority even but for some it will trigger an issue
It is not , nothing really is, risk free and it can or will be a problem for a minority of users.

My view is that i never saw drugs help anyone. If it is a crutch for something it really wont help. If you are shy cocaine [ or alcohol] is not the answer etc

The problem , for want of a better word, should be solved by doing the least harm and I think that is best achieved with legalisation and control
Like prostitution or abortion my own personal view is irrelevant it is going to happen whatever I think. the best I can do is harm reduction. that requires drugs to not be part of the criminal world, for obvious reasons, IMHO

scratch – Member

It’d make more sense to compare it with smoking behind the wheel no?

Of course it doesn’t- tobacco doesn’t intoxicate you in the same way. Still really no idea where you’re going tbh.

My view is that i never saw drugs help anyone. If it is a crutch for something it really wont help. If you are shy cocaine [ or alcohol] is not the answer etc

I would say taking ecstasy helps some people to be more open-minded, less judgemental, and more empathetic. I only have anecdotal evidence though.

Whatever the method I just think that a complete free-for-all is not the ideal.

Not very libertarian of you Stoner. I know you libertarians only want small Government; the bits removed that interfere with your money making schemes, but can’t you see what a great business opportunity it is? You wouldn’t want to scare anyone off now would you?

The war on drugs is like the war on terror. Both been around forever, both a bit vague and undefined, both unwinnable.

My view is that i never saw drugs help anyone. If it is a crutch for something it really wont help. If you are shy cocaine [ or alcohol] is not the answer etc

Hmmm … Agree in theory, however as a fairly shy, introverted person, drinking heavily and taking drugs in my 20’s allowed me to be the life and soul of the party rather than the saddo in the corner.

As such, I’ve always been rather grateful that drugs (I include alcohol obviously) exist.

I would say taking ecstasy helps some people to be more open-minded, less judgemental, and more empathetic. I only have anecdotal evidence though.

Given the EDL were formed by football hoolligans It may not work with everyone

Legalise – yes (individual choice grounds)
Encourge – no (personal choice grounds)

Don’t understand yunki’s (I think ) argument on P1 that people who have not experienced something, should not be able to legislate over it. That would make (necessary) legislation on lots on things pretty much impossible.

I think he was referring to qualia 😉

Ie there is a personal experience that comes about something that you can only know by doing it
Is it not mary][ righ tname??] the blind girl as the thought experiment?

It would be restrictive in legal realms for obvious reasons

Yes so long as it doesnt negatively affect price or quality 🙂 Katt Williams says it the best!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H1kJmc6Zog[/video]

Of course it doesn’t- tobacco doesn’t intoxicate you in the same way. Still really no idea where you’re going tbh

If it were made legal, you’d be in your rights to toke at the wheel, in my mind having a spliff at the wheel may lead to a reduced amount of concentration being paid to the road than if you’d not. Maybe you’d be driving at 23mph, maybe I’m being overly cautious and yeah its a shoot way off the actual point but…..

If it were made legal but still illegal in the car I’d say legalise tbh.

But the original football hooligans (organised as opposed to local hoodlums) were mainly middle aged, well paid gents – estate agents and the like, so that doesnt necessarily link to the EDL.

If it were made legal, you’d be in your rights to toke at the wheel

I might be wrong here, but I reckon it would be as illegal to drive under the influence of drugs as it is now.

Clearly I am in favour. I do think the TCP CDB potency should be marked on the package. Some newish strains have quite different effects from those of yore.

Also:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqYV9KKOZQ[/video]

Bill Hicks. Because.

Legalise – yes (individual choice grounds)
Encourge – no (personal choice grounds)

But surely by legalising, this would encourage those people that would think that it was therefore alright to use these drugs?

There’s plenty of legal things that will screw you up. Your point is?

Happy to let them make their own choices WW. As JY pointed out educating against drug use is complicated by obvious inconsistencies. But bottom line I would prefer to educate than legislate.

If it were made legal, you’d be in your rights to toke at the wheel

Why would you? I believe it’s already illegal to be high and drive, same as alcohol.

f it were made legal, you’d be in your rights to toke at the wheel,

Its illegal to have a drink whilst driving even if you are under the limit- i think its actually illegal to have an open can in the vehicle irrespective actually. with it legal , like booze, you could set a limit

You may be right re EDL the point was football hooligans did not become nice – however they did stop hitting each other to the same level so he may have a point

My point was that you cant legalise without encouraging.

I’d agree whole heartedly that there are plenty of legal things that screw you up. One being alcohol which I already endorsed earlier.

……There’s a reason I don’t usually wade into serious topics such as this *backs off, ruuuuns*

But surely by legalising, this would encourage those people that would think that it was therefore alright to use these drugs?

evidence is mixed but Holland has lower use rates than we do and Portugal decriminalised and rates reduced there.
Counter intuitively it seems to reduce it for reasons that remain unclear – its a few years since i read up so Happy to be corrected/updated.

Anyway, i’m off now as i’m tired and the whisky is making typing more difficult…

Thats irony btw 😀

Hmmm, I would have said yes to legalisation but White Widow in the Dam changed things…

evidence is mixed but Holland has lower use rates than we do

my experience of 4 years there is that I saw a factor of 10 more usage there than my years spent at uni.

and I’ve seen people addicted to it, even though users are steadfast in their claims you can’t be addicted to it. maybe it’s different kind of addiction to nicotine or white powders, and working on different timescales, but I have friends that are desperate for “the man” to drop by. and know of one that was scrabbling around for bits to make a joint like Zammo in Grange Hill.

decriminalise maybe. legalise no. but expect there to be a wee-wee test for every job app like in the US if it is decriminalised or legalised.

while I agree on a certain level of “let people decide for themselves”, if it’s something that affects others around them, or society in general, or health service etc. then there needs to be either controls or methods of discouraging use.

my experience of 4 years there is that I saw a factor of 10 more usage there than my years spent at uni.

of course you did they have places where you can legally smoke it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country

you can sort by descending and we are above Holland

I’ve seen too many horrible things happen to people I’ve known. Please don’t tell me that smoking cannabis doesn’t lead on to other drugs. It can.

I don’t use drugs apart from alcohol and believe that cannabis should be legalized. It’s already illegal to drive unduly impaired. Legalizing and instituting mandatory piss testing for employment is moronic; btw, it’s not all jobs that are piss tested, and the ones that are are mostly those done by the poor. The war on drugs has a class dimension too.

I also believe that for some cannabis use does lead onto the use of other drugs but would also say that that is: a) a link on the chain of mood-altering substances that comes chronologically into people’s lives after sugar, alcohol and caffeine, and b) partly true because the very act of buying cannabis brings you into contact with drug dealers who may or may not also have other drugs for sale.

The way to minimize the harm from cannabis is to take its distribution out of the hands of organized crime business groups and states, and put it into the hands of a highly regulated, highly taxed transparent market. The criminalization of drugs doesn’t just create gangsters in the UK (or other consumer markets), it destabilizes and corrupts entire developing countries and costs lives from underdevelopment.

Hear hear.

It should be legalised.

I don’t think you can’t treat cannabis as a single substance. The strengths now of skunk is vastly more powerful than was previously available. Wouldn’t want my kids to be driven by someone who has just had a lungful of this…has to stay illegal….

put it into the hands of a highly regulated, highly taxed transparent market.

The creation of a highly taxed market will lead to criminality as OCGs muscle in to tax evasion, eg iir there was a major spike in organised crime in Kent back in the early 90’s as gangs moved into smuggling hand rolling from belgium and even now OCGs still get involved in bootlegging as it’s easy money on a risk reward basis. It’s criminal diversification – if there’s a market they move in.

Wouldn’t want my kids to be driven by someone who has just had a lungful of this…has to stay illegal….

Why do people keep suggesting it will mean more drug-driving and that this won’t be illegal? 😉

Fantombiker – Member

Wouldn’t want my kids to be driven by someone who has just had a lungful of this…has to stay illegal….

<deja vu>

So we should ban all alcohol because we don’t want people drink driving? This is just silly, driving while intoxicated is an offence regardless of whether the substance you’re using is legal.

But surely by legalising, this would encourage those people that would think that it was therefore alright to use these drugs?

I don’t think the act of legalising would change much, but by doing so you put drug production into the hands of major companies, with major marketing budgets and few scruples…

(Note that legalising is not the same as decriminalising, so drug use rates in other countries are unlikely to be reliable indicators.)

Why do people keep suggesting it will mean more drug-driving and that this won’t be illegal?

Never underestimate the stupididy of people when it comes to topics such as this 😛

Many older people (40+) base there ‘yes’ to legalisation based on what was available when they were younger. The cannabis that they smoked was pretty mellow and the stimulant and depressant ingredients largely balanced each other out.

There were still cases of mental illness resulting from smoking but these were few and users generally did so without too many issues.

Modern cannabis namely skunk and it’s derivatives have had the depressant compounds bred out.or are selected as they are high in THC with almost no cannabinol. It’s now a far more potent and dangerous proposition.

I would vote yes to legalisation of the older style cannabis variants with much less THC and would make skunk etc class A.

I don’t think the act of legalising would change much, but by doing so you put drug production into the hands of major companies, with major marketing budgets and few scruples…

As opposed to the highly principled South American drug cartels that have turned large parts of the continent into lawless killing grounds, butchering thousands every year? Or maybe the highly moral Islamic Extremists? Whose idea of Sharia Law doesn’t extend quite far enough into not flooding the world with Heroine, then using the money to fund terrorism?

As opposed to the highly principled South American drug cartels that have turned large parts of the continent into lawless killing grounds, butchering thousands every year? Or maybe the highly moral Islamic Extremists? Whose idea of Sharia Law doesn’t extend quite far enough into not flooding the world with Heroine, then using the money to fund terrorism?

Hold on, I’m not saying I’m against legalisation! I think it would be a good idea: as your wail post points out, it would get the production out of the hands of some very nasty people. But arguing that consumption wouldn’t go up is IMO incorrect, which is the point I was making.

…… . . . . what was the question . . . . ……… ?

I’m with Binners on this one, legalise it all and pump the money currently spent on enforcement of stupid laws into education.

Also, I don’t think comparing the markets is helpful particuarly regarding other drugs such as tobacco where a significant black market exists. If cannabis was taxed too high then I reckon a lot of people would just grow their own. It’s not difficult, there is no processing of the final product to do and considering the amount of faff people go to to make their own beer (myself included!) this is a far simpler route to a good night out/in.