http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6030741.ece

going outside your house with a man other than your husband. too bloody right, too.

shit. i’d be flogged to death. (although i’m not married, nor a woman)

The most worrying aspect of that story for me isn’t the girl’s beating, horrific as it is. It’s the appearance and growth of Taliban influence in Pakistan, a nuclear armed country.

The struggle against the spread of Islamic fundamentalism is obviously going very well. Thank you Mr Bush and Mr Blair.

The struggle against the spread of Islamic fundamentalism is obviously going very well. Thank you Mr Bush and Mr Blair.

You think the rise of the Taleban in NW Pakistan is somehow related to the invasion of Iraq? Or maybe to us going in to Afghanistan? If the latter, do you disagree with that war, and think we should have just left the Taleban there to get on with it? Would that have prevented the Taleban getting a foothold in NW Pakistan?

Or am I missing the point entirely, and you’re blaming Bush and Blair for this in some completely different way?

Or am I missing the point entirely

Er, yes, you are…

Well go on then, elucidate me Mr Rude if it’s so obvious. Why is it Bush and Blair’s fault? Or was I reading sarcasm where there was none?

There was no major taliban influence in pakistan before the Iraq and afgani wars. The frontier region has always been volatile and rather lawless but the iraq war polarised opinion and taliban fighters fled into these border regions.

So yes – amongst other factors the bush blair wars in the middle east have helped give rise to fundamental islam in the swat valley

You think the rise of the Taleban in NW Pakistan is somehow related to the invasion of Iraq?

I think the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is due to ineffective foreign policies.

Does that answer your question ?

I was trying to separate the two wars, and you’re combining them again, TJ – not very clever given the motivations behind each were rather different (not to mention that public support for each is rather different amongst those who can manage to separate them). What’s more, Afghnistan and Pakistan aren’t in the Middle East.

taliban fighters fled into these border regions.

Taleban fighters from where? Did they flee all the way across Iran? Or are you just suggesting that the Iraq war generated Taleban fighters (in which case why would they have needed to flee into Pakistan to generate Taleban rule there?) Isn’t it actually the case that it’s the Afghanistan war which has created this situation, in which case let’s come back to my original question – should they have just left the Taleban to get on with it in Afghanistan (in which case many more similar incidents to this would be happening – just we might not hear about them)?

Perhaps Pakistan needs a military junta to keep the spread of extremist Islam in check. Wonder why they haven’t tried that?

Cris – it is very clear to me that the rise of fundamental Islam is due to the two wars. afgani taliban fled over the border into pakistan. There was n fundamental islam in Iraq before the invasion – there is now.

The foreign policy of the west has led to the rise of militant fundamental Islam.

The foreign policy of the west has led to the rise of militant fundamental Islam.

You mean there wasn’t any before we invaded Afghanistan? 🙄

There was n fundamental islam in Iraq before the invasion

Isn’t that because, under Saddam Hussein, any radical islamists in Iraq would have been up against a wall before you could say Allah be praised? So it depends whether you think Saddam was a sadistic, murderous tyrant or a secular ruler who kept the peace in his country.

chrism – Member

The foreign policy of the west has led to the rise of militant fundamental Islam.

You mean there wasn’t any before we invaded Afghanistan? [:roll:]

It goes back decades and is very complex. We armed and supported the Muhajadeen (sp) to fight against the Soviets. In western powers I include ( perhaps wrongly) them. so you have the soviet invasion, the arming of the muhadjadeen, the invasion by UK and USA. Decades of bad foreign policy that led to the currant situation.

You could probably even take it further back

Corrded – the destruction and invasion of Iraq has given rise t the conditions that create radicalism.

Obviously you could go back to the crusades BUT – what we perceive as the current Islamic fundamentalist movement has its roots in American foreign policy stretching thirty years or more. Britain did it’s fair share too.

Ah, so it’s actually Facha’s fault, not Bush and Blair’s? Glad we’ve got that sorted! 😀

The only reason I waded in in the first place is that blaming such things on GWB and TB is a real cheap shot. I actually largely agree with most of your latest, TJ (remember we also armed Saddam), though still support us going to war in Afghanistan when we did. It’s a completely different issue to Iraq – if only we could have done a better job of it!

TJ – You’re right, there were little or no fundamental Islamic groups in Iraq before the invasion, mainly due to the slighty brutal regime that existed in those days. Its amazing what gassing people and random executions will do. We Brits should know of course as we wrote the book on it.

what we perceive as the current Islamic fundamentalist movement has its roots in American foreign policy stretching thirty years or more.

More. You surely have to go back at least as far as the support of the Shah, before the Iranian revolution.

he destruction and invasion of Iraq has given rise t the conditions that create radicalism

What, in so far as they gained freedom of speech and the means of democratically electing a government? I can see how that would inevitably lead to Islamic radicalism.

🙄

You really think that? There is no meaningfull democracy in Iraq. USA are going to appoint a prime minister because they have fallen out with the puppet president they have installed.

A million children have died in in iraq as a result of western sanctions and wars. The infrastructure has been deliberately destroyed, the oil is being handed over to the USA, there is no effective rule of law, armed men both in uniform and not shoot people with impunity – attacking weddings and funerals. Folk are regularly tortured by USA forces. Life expectancy is well down, the people are hungry scared ill and under threat continuously.

This is what gives rise to radicalism

We armed and supported the Muhajadeen

Let’s be more specific shall we ? …….. We armed, financed, trained, and built terrorists camps for Osama bin Laden. We made him what he is today. And we applauded when he and his men slit the throats of Russian doctors or blew up schools built by the Afghan government. They were simply protecting their traditional life-styles from foreign atheist invaders we claimed. Osama bin Laden and his followers aren’t doing anything different now, they are just simply now doing it to people who speak a different language.

But it doesn’t seem such a good idea now, does it ?

Would it stil be happening if we hadn’t gone in? I would say probably. if not there then back in those other countries.

chrism

More. You surely have to go back at least as far as the support of the Shah, before the Iranian revolution.

It’s such a sprawling subject that there is barely any point conducting a post mortem. Suffice to say though western interference has not helped.

corroded
What, in so far as they gained freedom of speech and the means of democratically electing a government? I can see how that would inevitably lead to Islamic radicalism.

Yeah, and the only price they had to pay was the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents and the total destruction of their country – hurrah for democracy!

grizzlygus

Let’s be more specific shall we ? …….. We armed, financed, trained, and built terrorists camps for Osama bin Laden. We made him what he is today. And we applauded when he and his men slit the throats of Russian doctors or blew up schools built by the Afghan government. They were simply protecting their traditional life-styles from foreign atheist invaders we claimed. Osama bin Laden and his followers aren’t doing anything different now, they are just simply now doing it to people who speak a different language.

But it doesn’t seem such a good idea now, does it ?

And we promised billions in financial aid in order to rebuild the country after the Russians pulled out, and we promised to support our “allies” in Afghanistan” after the war . Instead we abandoned them and let the various heavily armed (by us) tribal militias fight over the scraps and tear the country apart for control – virtually opening the door for the Taliban.

Maybe some of you lot should run for public office, seeing as you know exactly what to do to make the world a better place. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I think some of you have forgotten that Bin Laden and his followers attacked America a couple of times before America and Britain decided to go into Afganistan.

But Bin laden is only armed and trained because Britain and the USA armed and trained him and his followers 🙂 Financed by saudi as well – another USA ally / puppet regime created by Britain and USA

Hindsight is usually 20/20

I dont think much of pakistani s&m videos.

I think some of you have forgotten that Bin Laden and his followers attacked America a couple of times before America and Britain decided to go into Afganistan.

Really? Has this been proven beyond all reasonable doubt? In a court of Law? Before a fair and impartial judge/jury? With both sides putting their case equally?

I think not….

Oil

Money

Power.

I think some of you have forgotten that Bin Laden and his followers attacked America a couple of times before America and Britain decided to go into Afganistan.

Interesting chain of events here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

Watch the whole series with an open mind…

A stupid mind might make it more interesting.

thanks twohats, but the title itself had me reaching for the back button.

These people are savages.

I say just keep out. Cut them off from the rest of the world and let them live their own way.

Really? Has this been proven beyond all reasonable doubt? In a court of Law? Before a fair and impartial judge/jury? With both sides putting their case equally?

Well lets catch him and give it a try. In the meantime the balance of evidence, including a video of Bin Laden admitting it, seems to be that Al-Qa’eda were behind 9/11.

Twohats do you believe in little green men visiting us from space as well?

Oil rich or strategically important savages.

A stupid mind might make it more interesting.

Because of course, anyone who questions the ‘Official Line’ of the US Government is stupid. Right….

I love the way that overwhelming evidence points towards 9-11 being a completely staged event, and the collapse of the towers as controlled demolition, yet the US authorities continue to insist it was all the work of ‘Al Quaeda’, and refuse to actually admit what really happened. And if they’ve nothing to hide, why has so much effort been put into attempting to debunk the ‘conspiracy theorists’?

As for Pakistan, well, I’ve no doubt it’s on the list of nations for the US to invade and control. Were it not for it’s nuclear capabilities, I’m sure it wooduv happened by now. Bit like how Iran hazzunt been invaded.

And what’s all this fuss about North Korea launching another crap firework? How can the USA ‘condemn’ another nation for doing exactly what they’ve been doing, for decades?

It is quite clear, to anyone with an open mind (or the ‘stupid’, maybe), that the actions of the West aren’t to protect us all from ‘terrorism’, but to protect Western economic interests and global power.

As has been pointed out already; the Taleban have been acting in this manner for decades. Far, far worse atrocities are continuing to happen all over the World; like in the Congo, Rwanda, etc. Unless a region is of economic or strategic importance, this barely gets a mention.

Western actions have been carefully engineered to polarise people’s opinions and ideologies. Whereas many people in Muslim countries were previously critical of the West, now, you either fully support the actions of the West, or you’re a terrorist, it seems. So, many people who might have been fairly moderate, have been terrorised into radicalism. The overwhelming majority of Muslim people worldwide see the actions of the Taleban and other radical groups using Islam as a cover, as utterly abhorrent. As would any right-minded person.

So, the ‘World’ is fighting against ‘Global Terrorism’, which in reality is actually a very small amount of people. Whilst I’ve no doubt that some of these sick, deluded fools are very dangerous, invading entire nations is hardly going to really solve the issues. If the West were genuinely concerned for the peoples of such ravaged areas, then why aren’t they helping to educate (not brainwash) people, rather than bombing their schools and colleges? Or paying groups of fanatics to do the dirty work?

Easier to control frightened people, than those who are assured and confident…

Well lets catch him and give it a try.

Do you really think, considering the incredible levels of surveillance technology the US has at it’s disposal, that they woon’t have found him by now? Really? Even in the wilds of Afghanistan, people can be found, if you look hard enough.

Maybe he’s broadcasting his podcasts from Area 51…

Come on; open your eyes. It’s all a smokescreen. Demonise a group of people, unsettle a region, create a few sensational events, win popular support, invade, control, rule.

And then be free to impose your ideology on an even wider, and more docile audience.

Twohats do you believe in little green men visiting us from space as well?

Well, the Americans do, apparently…

Come on; open your eyes. It’s all a smokescreen. Demonise a group of people, unsettle a region, create a few sensational events, win popular support, invade, control, rule.

And then be free to impose your ideology on an even wider, and more docile audience

So the same policy that islamists employ then.

Erm, no.

Rude boy you’ve watched too many series of 24….. its not for real mate its a TV show!

Personally I love the way everyone overlooks the history of Afganistan and Iraq and somehow manage to work it round to slating their own country. So lets get a few things straight Afganistan has been a lawless, violent and dare I say extreme area since the time of Alexander the Great. As has the North West Frontier, now known as Pakistan. (A the G incidentally is also the guy who is responsible for the fellas with Red beards wandering about there). In fact further than that the Sikhs are a warrior cast specifically bred by the Indian Moguls to keep the nutters from the North out, and I think you will find that goes back a fair old way. Likewise Iraq has been fought over since time began. Thats got **** all to do with either the UK or the US, we are just the latest in a long line of sad buggers to have a go at sorting the mess out. (Bit like Vietnam where folk tend to forget it had been constantly at war without significant break for 1000 years before the yanks showed up and has been for a significant period since they left!.

The $64,000 question is why? Well I’m guessing its got a tiny weeny bit to do with its strategic importance. However, I’m not that fussed frankly, as I happen to have the luxury of living in a wealthy country which does have free elections, and if I don’t like the way its going I can do several things about it including voting and demonstrating against it, or even standing for parliament whilst wearing a white suit. How many Iraqi’s or Afgahni’s have ever been able to do the same??

Simple really. Now for all those who don’t like the way things are done here, I do believe that the Taleban and Mullah Omar have vacancies for suicide bombers. How about popping off and learning about the culture first hand rather than spouting utter crap on here? If you come back, you may well be better informed than you are now.

Demonise a group of people

How- by killing three thousand of your own and your allies people in some elaborate conspiracy? That’s pretty unbelievable even for republican neocons

You’ll be telling me next the USA didn’t land on the moon and it was all filmed on a Hollywood back lot.

I watched that video this morning and was too disturbed by it for any kind of rational posting.
Now I see that the usual suspects on STW have used the plight of some poor girl to yet again flex their over-inflated egos.
Shame on you.

How about popping off and learning about the culture first hand rather than spouting utter crap on here?

WTF are you on about? Where did I suggest that things were rosy in Iraq or Afghanistan, before this latest round of bullet-swapping?

As for Muslim culture, well. Having grown up in a Muslim family, I of course have no knowledge whatosever, of anything to do with Islam, or of what really happens in Muslim countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. No, course not… 🙄

Bit like Vietnam where folk tend to forget it had been constantly at war without significant break for 1000 years before the yanks showed up and has been for a significant period since they left!.

Not quite to the same extent as when the Glorious US Army were there, mind; and previous and subseqent conflicts have seen nowhere near the level of deaths as when the US were in there. And they certainly din’t involve nasties such as Napalm, Agent Orange, landmines and God knows what else; some of these things which are still affecting people even now.

So, you’ve read a bit of history. Well done. I’m talking about what’s happening now, not thousands, hundreds of years or even a few decades ago.

Places like Afghanistan and Pakistan have never really been stable. There have always been rival groups vying for power, in areas that are very hard to manage and maintain order in, partly due to the geographic nature of the regions. And if you wanna quote from history; you seem to have conveniently ignored the influence and impact the British had in that part of the World; during the British colonialisation of the Subcontinent, various local Rajahs, Mullahs and assorted warlords were favoured over others, as suited the British rulers. Certainly, the Britsh exploited those areas, and much of the lack of stability there can in part be attributed to British Rule.

And why were the British there in the first place? something to do with a concept of ‘Empire’, was it not?

And then we have America. The Land of the Free. A nation truly at peace with itself, built on the solid foundations of trust, sharing, co-operation and peace…

If you come back, you may well be better informed than you are now.

LOL! But if I were to go away, then how would I Make Benefit From Glorious Teachings from your good self?

you’ve watched too many series of 24

Never seen an episode, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I do enjoy ‘Shameless’, though. Very funny.