• This topic has 350 replies, 101 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by JoeG.
Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 351 total)
  • she does it right
  • adjustablewench
    Free Member

    I can see the world can be a very confusing place, and i feel it is important to look at the world as a whole on this one. As whilst we do have an overly permissive society you need to look at it as a whole to get the real context.

    As with so many threads on here – i will say the same again, nothing beats good parental guidance. You need to make your children see the world around them for what it is. As a parent we instill self belief in our children and give them the tools to deal with the big bad world.

    I do not expect my children to go out stumbling into life not knowing how to deal with what they come across in terms of images, exploitation and drugs and all the other nasties they may come across. I see that as my job – i definitely wouldn’t be relying upon the world to protect them.

    Porn, drugs, exploitation, hideously expensive telephones – they are all out there, but my children know that doesn’t mean they are obliged to get involved, and more importantly they do not feel pressured to. that is our role as parents surely?

    PJM1974
    Free Member

    Crikey, nine pages in…

    I’m rather ambivalent about it. On one hand, the rider in the vid is a hell of a lot better on a bike than I am and is clearly pretty handy – all good so far. However I’m confused as to why the rider’s face was never shown while an amount of cleavage bordering on the gratuitous was out instead. What’s the point here?

    I find the sexualization of it pretty sad…but then I’m definitely not the target audience – I’m probably old enough to be the rider’s dad. I wonder how the younger audiences will react, if at all?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    This is NOT unconnected to the objectification of women we see every day in pop cultures.

    It is? Because you’d think that Spain wouldn’t have it worse than we do considering not long ago it was a very conservative country, you’d think India wouldn’t have worse than we do considering it still is a very conservative country.

    The only time my girlfriend started being cat called is since she moved into a predominantly conservative Asian part of London.

    What are your thoughts? You mentioned morality. The word is pretty quaint isn’t it? Does it deserve to be sneered at though?

    My thoughts are as follows:

    The “what about your daughter” line is simply an appeal to emotion, I won’t be part of it. The real problem is the minority of men who already hold deeply seated misogynistic beliefs, getting rid of porn or altering consumer culture won’t change them. Telling women what they can or can not do with their bodies is no different if it’s men telling them what to do out of their own insecurities (see the middle east) or western feminists of a certain brand – both are oppressive controlling ideologies. The whole argument also reminds me of computer game controversy eg “Is GTA ruining our society” – the answer always being no, no and no (violent computer games decrease rates of violence in children).

    My other thought is that if daughters can’t distinguish between marketing and reality thus causing themselves massive anxiety whilst they try to attain that which they can never achieve, then they need educating or lots of psychological therapy. As it’s clear they were never mentored properly by a parent or teacher.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    grum
    Free Member

    Telling women what they can or can not do with their bodies is no different if it’s men telling them what to do out of their own insecurities (see the middle east) or western feminists of a certain brand – both are oppressive controlling ideologies.

    Big old straw man argument in there (which others have already used) – I don’t think you’ll find anyone (here at least) calling for videos like this to be banned, or for women to be told they aren’t allowed to appear in them.

    Not liking the video isn’t the same as an oppressive controlling ideology. At all.

    I agree with your point about the appeal to emotion though. It’s basically the old classic ‘speaking as a parent’ as if that gives you some extra moral authority, which is nonsense.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    As a final point, I was an ugly duckling (not bad looking now and certainly got by at university) whilst I was at school – lots of people including girls saw fit to take the piss back then but I hold no grudge about it. These days I get the most attention from women when I’m wearing a nice suit – my point being that I was objectified at school and now as an adult…..everyone does it. From my perspective (my socioeconomic level) the dating scene comprises of successful women who want more successful men than them (Think Sex and the City syndrome, I am still expected to be the breadwinner) so you could argue that men are exploited and objectified (being noticed more when wearing a suit) for their financial resources.

    So all in all I don’t give a damn. Everyone’s doing it and moaning about one part of it is like moaning about an erosion of Christian equality whilst berating Muslims, utterly hypocritical. Then again I have a very cynical and rather nihilistic view of the human condition….

    grum
    Free Member

    That’s just ‘whatabouttery’ and not a logical argument. Saying one thing isn’t an issue because something else is also an issue. It’s possible to care about more than one thing and not have to make reference to all the ills of the world every time you discuss something.

    Eg women here complain about sexual harassment, but what about FGM in Africa? Isn’t that a bigger issue? It’s largely an irrelevant diversion to the discussion.

    And saying ‘well women do bad stuff so men can too’ is just advocating a race to the bottom.

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    PJM1974 – Member
    Crikey, nine pages in…

    I’m rather ambivalent about it. On one hand, the rider in the vid is a hell of a lot better on a bike than I am and is clearly pretty handy – all good so far. However I’m confused as to why the rider’s face was never shown while an amount of cleavage bordering on the gratuitous was out instead. What’s the point here?

    Think that’s the salient point – the girls face isn’t shown, her name isn’t even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She’s not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

    That crosses some arbitrary line in my head – there’s a difference between reducing someone to just tits and looking at a pic of someone like Emily Batty and thinking “Wow, she looks great”.

    Casually dispensing with the person altogether is the very definition of onjectification. That bugs me, even though there’a a part of my brain chiding me for taking it so seriously.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    I guess you’re right Grum, I just think there’s a point where it starts to become ridiculous. I find the whole “it’s the media and porn causing us to objectify each other” when really it’s just human **** nature. That’s what we’re like and denying it or pinning the blame on one group or part of society is simply a hilarious level of self deceit, the solution is just good old fashioned mindfulness. We all need to be more mindful of each other, men and women included.

    Think that’s the salient point – the girls face isn’t shown, her name isn’t even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She’s not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

    Maybe….just maybe you’re reading into the video to much. She’s probably just a narcissist who wanted en ego boost without people she knew identifying her.

    cinnamon_girl
    Full Member

    * bangs head against wall … repeatedly *

    Northwind
    Full Member

    honourablegeorge – Member

    Think that’s the salient point – the girls face isn’t shown, her name isn’t even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She’s not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

    Mostly because she’s wearing a full face helmet 😆 But no, she’s not “just a pair of tits”, there is an entire body attached and it’s riding a bike.

    grum
    Free Member

    I think I’d have much less of a problem with this video if it had Red Bull Media House standards of cinematography. 😆

    It just seems a bit cheap and lame.

    I guess you’re right Grum, I just think there’s a point where it starts to become ridiculous. I find the whole “it’s the media and porn causing us to objectify each other” when really it’s just human **** nature. That’s what we’re like and denying it or pinning the blame on one group or part of society is simply a hilarious level of self deceit, the solution is just good old fashioned mindfulness. We all need to be more mindful of each other, men and women included.

    I’m all for mindfulness – but I’m not sure going ‘oh well objectifying each other is human nature so let’s just get on with it’ is particularly helpful.

    Isn’t it also human nature to lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape etc then?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Isn’t it also human nature to lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape etc?

    Those are outlawed in the name of civilisation, so not doing those things serves a purpose. However objectifying people unfortunately plays a rather large role within evolution, so we go back to my point of mindfulness. We need to accept the human condition and be mindful of others and our place in the world but not deceive ourselves, shaming people who produce videos like the one posted is not the answer. Teaching people to be aware of what we as humans are like and to treat others with some respect when out in public is the answer. Marketing sexuality sells but you don’t have to be caught up by it, banning it instead of dealing with how people interact with the world around them defeats the real point and misses a vital lesson.

    But we won’t do that, what we will do is “ban this sick filth” and then we’ll go on treating each other like shit (especially those with no voice to get whatever it is they don’t like banned) as if nothing happened.

    teasel
    Free Member

    * bangs head against wall … repeatedly *

    When you do that…are your breasts jiggling very slightly…?

    😉

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    my point being that I was objectified at school and now as an adult…..everyone does it

    We dont and claiming we are all like you is not any better than an argument based on being a parent – i would assume this thread had convinced you their was a spectrum of opinion across the STW hive mind and within both genders. Its like we are all individuals or something.
    FWIW I think you mean everyone has sexual attractions but this is some way short of objectifying.
    As Grum notes no one is suggesting it be banned just pointing out why they think it is not a positive example or the reason that womens liberation had in mind. I am not sure a women showing her tits bounce to sell stuff is a shining example of equality or liberation tbh but yes its her choice, i would not stop her making it and I would not ban it either. I also dont think it is the pinnacle of human development either.

    I dont get puritanical about it but I would prefer a society that viewed women as something other than things to be objectified. We wont stop sexual attraction – as if anyone wants to- but we dont have to do this either.

    Objectify
    degrade to the status of a mere object.

    I doubt this is what you really mean when you use that word – I cannot see how it is positive to see them as just an object measured on how much you would like to “do” them

    PS Its rare we have an mature debate on STW well done all

    devs
    Free Member

    Anyone that sees a girl in the video is a sexist bastard.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    To be fair devs I actually did notice the Ancillotti first.

    Junky read some of my newer posts, I am kind of thinking out loud though.

    FWIW I think you mean everyone has sexual attractions but this is some way short of objectifying.

    Yes I meant objectify, everyone does defining someones worth in terms of their socio-economic status is also objectification. Again my point is this….. the paradigm in which this argument is being frame throughout this thread is crap…. the problem is not with marketing, porn etc….it’s with people…..if we as a society clamp down on lads mags etc then we are missing a vital lesson to be learnt. We will have simply banned whatever is in vogue on the outrage bus and we will then go on objectifying and generally being nasty to each other in a myriad of other ways. There is another way though which I have already mentioned.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Yes I meant objectify, everyone does.

    NO no we do not all reduce the gender we fancy to the role of objects.

    I dont think anyone thinks we can stop it, there are lots of things we cannot stop murser, rape, stealing for example o but that does not mean we should ignore it either just because, some, humans do it and think its “normal and we all do it”

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Again you’re mostly missing my point and delving into semantics but I do feel at least 70 percent of people objectify each other. You seem like an optimist to me Junky, unfortunately I’m not.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WutMFgHnB0I[/video]

    Now would those people in the spelling bee, be nicer to the black person because 1) Society had taught them it’s not okay to be nasty to some people but okay to be nasty to others or 2) Because they had become slightly more philosophical and aware of themselves and others?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Well the word does mean something so it is self evidently a semantic point
    70 % is less than all – sorry not trying to point score here as it has IMHO ben a very intersting debate on STW
    I dont think we do all objectify but we all [ except Lord Stephen Fry] have sexual desires and attractions to certain genders/people
    That is some way short of debasing to the point of an object though which is what objectify means

    I do agree with your broader points to some degre just not the word you are using to describe it

    No access to You Tube so cannot comment on it
    I will leave it there not trying to provoke an argument or thread hijack

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    To me objectification means treating a person as thing without regard for their feelings so it can mean sexual attraction without social conscience but to me it can also mean degenerating people for their lack of wealth or looks, lots of men and women do this.

    And if you don’t believe me when I think that at least all men (including you Junky) objectify women, read this:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-our-brains-turn-women-into-objects

    Northwind
    Full Member

    devs – Member

    Anyone that sees a girl in the video is a sexist bastard.

    Anyone that sees a bike is a buftie

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Northwind – Member

    Mostly because she’s wearing a full face helmet But no, she’s not “just a pair of tits”, there is an entire body attached and it’s riding a bike.

    They did focus on her arse a couple of times, to be fair. I was struggling to see what kind of bike she was on at the time. 🙂

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I clocked the bike as an ancillotti

    fairly distinctive, honestly I had got bored of the tits and was wondering what the video was about

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Yeah, they are distinctive eh. Spondon pushbike 😆

    grum
    Free Member

    But we won’t do that, what we will do is “ban this sick filth”

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Why is it a straw man argument Grum when my broad point was in response to this quote.

    ‘s like we’re sucked into this weird Porn/ idealised/bitch fest where pointing a Gopro at your tits is apparently ok behaviour!!! How brainwashed do you need to be??

    Why is pointing a go pro at your tits not okay and why is it okay that women are shamed for doing so instead of the men who can’t distinguish between the internet and reality when dealing with women in public? The video’s not the problem here, it’s that some people have made undignified posts that alienate some of the female and male members. Then again I’m not bothered if they posted pictures or videos of male or female riders they like because I’m above being offended by it.

    Lifer
    Free Member

    *runs headfirst at wall*

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    did you video your man bits while doing it? Will it sell t-shirts?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    But it has to be ‘personal’ not because of some image or idea from a magazine. Not forced on you by someone else

    I’m sorry but you have to have somewhat of a weak mind to have it forced into you’re psyche. Again the issue here is not media content it’s the minds of some of those that view it who are in need of some enlightenment. I’d also argue some concepts of beauty are neurologically ingrained (as evidenced by the baby studies) the media is just a reflection of who we are at a deep level neurologically. So we again we come back to the point that we need to look inwards to our own psychological makeup to deal with this issue and not point and blame others.

    If I ever kill someone I’ll tell the judge Eminem encouraged me to do it.

    aracer
    Free Member

    grum – Member

    😆

    ndthornton
    Free Member

    Can we continue this debate on Woman’s Hour please!

    aracer
    Free Member

    Why is pointing a go pro at your tits not okay and why is it okay that women are shamed for doing so

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    So it is your view that no one is impacted by the culture around them and what they see? We all grew up free hence why we see so many men in skirts ? Somewhere between we are powerless against itand it does not affect me at all lies the truth.

    Some of this debate was about how sexual practice/behaviour had changed in young people due to them watching porn for an example of it being real

    To me objectification means

    Well it does not to the dictionary and it is not the best word to use here IMHO. there is no mileage in debating it further IMHO

    And if you don’t believe me when I think that at least all men (including you Junky) objectify women,

    Right so its everybody does it, 70% do it, all men do it and I do it
    I think you have covered all bases there

    Then again I’m not bothered if they posted pictures or videos of male or female riders they like because I’m above being offended by it

    Pherhaps its the constant exposure to images like this within our permissive society and culture that has led to your tolerance/lack of offence….though of course you are unaffected by such things from up there

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    So it is your view that no one is impacted by the culture around them and what they see? We all grew up free hence why we see so many men in skirts ? Somewhere between we are powerless against itand it does not affect me at all lies the truth.

    Some of this debate was about how sexual practice/behaviour had changed in young people due to them watching porn for an example of it being real

    I’m saying trying to change the media as opposed to how we view the world and our place in it is a much worse, more psychologically unhealthy long term solution to the problem.

    You don’t have to be affected by the media and develop an eating disorder if you receive better education, realise it’s just fantasy and rise above it. What you seem to be arguing for is that we ban whatever we don’t like and/or pretend it doesn’t exist. It’s utterly immature.

    Pherhaps its the constant exposure to images like this within our permissive society and culture that has led to your tolerance/lack of offence….

    No, it’s because I’ve dealt with far more offensive things and rose above it – instead I could have spent years bottling anger up inside. I don’t really do Buddhism but that would be a good place to start.

    bigjim
    Full Member

    what a lot of fuss over a few cm of someone’s body. good grief 😐

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I’m saying trying to change the media as opposed to how we view the world and our place in it is a much worse, more psychologically unhealthy long term solution to the problem.

    I am struggling to follow that as argument and i would require some reason as to why changing the media is psychologically unhealthy but changing me to fit them is psychologically healthy

    You don’t have to be affected by the media

    I agree on specfics but it was a question about our cultures impact on us – do you think western liberalsim has not impacted on you ? The things you see every day and the attitudes you hear have not affected you?
    Yes we all know its not mind control but we all know we are not immune from it either. Its a nuances argument between the two extremes

    and develop an eating disorder if you receive better education, realise it’s just fantasy and rise above it.

    Does the media perception of women and their body shapes
    1) makes it less likely that a person will develop this
    2) more likely
    That is the point – clearly it does have an impact and not everyone will rise above it

    What you seem to be arguing for is that we ban whatever we don’t like and/or pretend it doesn’t exist. It’s utterly immature.

    What you seem to be doing is grossly simplifying other views and misrepresent it to the point of complete distortion [ how many times have folk said they would not ban it myself included 🙄 ], not answerign the points made in reply and then calling me names- though of course immature may be a compliment

    Out of interest how old are you?

    walleater
    Full Member

    I flicked through a few comments and the word ‘selfie’ stood out. You know, the photos that people take of THEMSELVES and post on-line. No exploitation, sexism blah blah blah….just people taking photos of themselves. Feel free to click the link below (or you could just type ‘selfie’ into Google…):

    Titties and moobs!

    So maybe, just maybe, the girl in question enjoyed making the video, liked the result and is having a right old laugh at the reaction?

    whippersnapper
    Free Member

    I blame society… society made me what I am

    Puts phone down, no selfie today.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    What you seem to be doing is grossly simplifying other views and misrepresent it to the point of complete distortion [ how many times have folk said they would not ban it myself included ], not answerign the points made in reply and then calling me names- though of course immature may be a compliment

    What do you suggest then?

    I agree on specfics but it was a question about our cultures impact on us – do you think western liberalsim has not impacted on you ? The things you see every day and the attitudes you hear have not affected you?

    No, to thine own self be true and all of that.

    I am struggling to follow that as argument and i would require some reason as to why changing the media is psychologically unhealthy but changing me to fit them is psychologically healthy

    Because when we change the attitudes we hold towards each other, then we will stop being suckered in by the media and we will stop treating each other like crap. If we shoot the symptoms (the media) and not the cause (ourselves) we will simply carry on being bastards to each other on an individual basis, attitudes won’t change, builders will still cat call young women and life will go on as if nothing happened.

    Might I suggest one on one counselling and lessons on things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(psychology) for all children ages between 4 and 18 as a replacement for the spirituality we lost (thank god) during the enlightenment?

    Lifer
    Free Member

    But if the media image of the ‘ideal’ doesn’t exist, and people don’t feel they need to aspire to something (be it body image/big house big car/whatever) that is difficult to reach they wouldn’t need one on one counselling and lessons on something designed to alleviate psychological problems.

    Your idea of the idividual as ‘the cause’ is, IMO, a massive cop-out.

Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 351 total)

The topic ‘she does it right’ is closed to new replies.