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Your problem is that you’re almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are. You’re using this whole debate as a way to try and compensate for that; in some strange way, you’re demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.

Away and don’t talk pish.

There are now going to be huge claims for compo, loss of career prospects, failed relationships etc going to come out of this alledged abuse, to make a caseand some sympathy from those around them, just no touching.

Thing is once any sort of abuse is mention it sticks to the one whos seen as the perpetrator, even though they where totally innocent.

Thing is once any sort of abuse is mention it sticks to the one whos seen as the perpetrator, even though they where totally innocent.

I don’t think this applies to the rich and powerfull.

You’re very right. I score very low on ‘politeness’ even though I am very compassionate so I temd to favour ‘raw truth’ over sugar coated diplomacy.

Tinder Profile: “I tell it straight!”

I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas

Reminiscent of when there was the hysteria about child abuse and it got to such an extent that teachers and school staff wouldn’t give kids a hug when they fell over in the playground or were crying and upset.
It’s strange and somewhat at odds with the prevalance of hugs all round that seemed to permeate every social interaction awhile back (something that I always felt uncomfotable with and did my best to avoid participating in ).
In the past as a line manager in interviews with staff I have on occasion put my hand on their forearm,both male and female to reassure them when they were clearly distressed supplemented with me asking if they wanted me to get someone to come and give them some support.Also having been on the scene when helping people who have had falls or incidents in the street holding their hand or forearm for reassurance until the emergency services arrive feels like a natural thing to do.
I never send suggestive texts to anyone afterwards though!

I blame Adam Sandler.

Checkout girl in sainsburies just touched my hand! Fortunately she was hot, does my casual sexism cancel out her touching me?

Goddamn Adam Sandler, he’s so kneedy 😉

I’m far from being politically correct but I would / have never touched a female colleague other than shaking hands etc. Why would you? Its asking for trouble and risking causing offence. But then I’m not a very touchy feelie person.

As for bumping into people on crowded public transport / pubs etc well that is clearly different although best not to rub yourself against anyone too suggestively.

And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis. I was told about that 20 years ago and thought it a bit OTT but nonetheless took the advice.

This is all very well but how does anyone ever get to sleep with their colleagues?

a superior intellect

It’s been explained to you so many times now that you really aren’t the misunderstood genius that you see yourself as.

On the contrary, your facile opinions and breathtaking lack of self-awareness mark you out as a bit of a buffoon.

you’re demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.

The irony.

PS. kudos for sharing this TJ, and for keeping a level head about it

All us folks that were there in the early days of raving best be shitting ourselves over being sued over showing some love to eveyone else at the party. 🙄
Sadly there seems to be a lot less love going on these days.
Even sadder there seems to be a lot more not love going on. 😥

And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.

Why on earth not?

GrahamS – Member
How do these avoid all physical contact “stay at arm distance” cultures cope with things like taking public transport, standing in a crowd, going to a busy bar, getting in a crowded lift etc?

In the remote village you get lynch …

In the city you get reported and the religious police would arrest you to keep you from harm.

😮

Odd chewkw, I’ve been to Malaysia a few times and was never arrested for going in a crowded lift, standing next to someone on the bus, or even shaking hands. Never got the slightest hint from them that I was in any way offensive.

I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.

Yay equality! 🙄

Women in my workplace are rare, but I’ve got no problem going to the pub/cafe with them alone. Why would I? That’s just odd.

And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.

+1 no matter how innocent this is asking for trouble your word against theirs. See previous evidence in this thread.

Apart from shaking hands or reciprocating hugging or something I don’t touch women in the office. I was a line manager for a few a couple of years back and I wouldn’t have dreamt of touching them (even in a reassuring manner) in the workplace.

There are plenty of women out there who are very tactile and it does make me feel uncomfortable (as I have wife + kids) even though it’s always innocent I’m sure.

Your problem is that you’re almost certainly an underachiever who….
…demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.

GrahamS – Member
Odd chewkw, I’ve been to Malaysia a few times and was never arrested for going in a crowded lift, standing next to someone on the bus, or even shaking hands. Never got the slightest hint from them that I was in any way offensive.

You were either with a tolerant crowd or they let you be or like you (perhaps you don’t look local) … 😛

The trouble starts when they take offense. 😛

A story related by my wife when discussing Workplace Touching in the NHS:

She, as a Senior SHO at the time, had some treatment questions for a senior Consultant.

She met him in the corridor and started the conversation. He was rushing somewhere else, so said “walk with me” and stuck out his hand. Without really thinking she took it and they walked hand in hand through the hospital discussing the case!

She said with anyone else it would have been very weird and awkward, but it’s just the lovely guy he is.

you’re almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are

I guess the retiring early to the life he choose is what makes you think he underachieved – its so wide of the mark one would be forgiven for mistaking this as a wild stab in the dark from someone dumb. Yo
As for superior intellect as I keep saying bright folk [ or humble folk or ace riders or super compassionate or whatever] dont feel the need to constantly tell folk how bright they are- have you seen how many time Trump does this for example – its merely serves to highlight their insecurity.

I recently had a shoulder x-ray and the chap that did it was (in the adjoining room) staring and pointing at the screen and a nurse joined him to take a look. They carried on discussing something and called another nurse over. They showed her something on the screen. She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says “oh, you’re pierced..”
I probably could of had her fired.

Interesting thread.

I think the lesson has to be no touching of a female colleague, no matter how well intentioned.

TJ – by your own admission, you were a more senior colleague and as such may have been regarded in a position of perceived power. You touched a colleague and then followed up with an offer of a massage. You thought you were being helpful. However, it doesn’t matter how noble your intentions were, if your colleague felt uncomfortable with your behaviour that she reported it then you clearly crossed the line.

Look at it from your colleagues perspective.

“So this guy at work touched me on the arm. I thought nothing of it but later he went on to offer me a massage. He made me feel really uncomfortable. He is more senior than me. What a creep! I think I should complain to HR.”

Herein lies the problem. While men may think that they are behaving appropriately, they need to consider how their actions could be perceived. Abuse and bullying legislation is based on how the victim is made to feel.

It’s not rocket science. If you think it isn’t appropriate, it probably isn’t!

Sanny (Head of HR in a previous life)

Your problem is that you’re almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are. You’re using this whole debate as a way to try and compensate for that; in some strange way, you’re demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.

The touching her are thing on it’s own as many other have said is not too much of an issue in the right context, I know a good few people male and female who when talking often reach out and touch people on arm or leg. I also fully understand where you are coming from with the care environment of a reassuring holing of a hand or pat on the arm, it’s does make people relax and feel safe. It can of course have the complete opposite. The massage part was the risky one, maybe the staff member was Ok with it but when discussing with her boss her boss didn’t see the context, the boss should have dealt with it better though.

Anyway not sure if it’s been posted elsewhere but Jo Brand summed up the whole thing the other night perfectly.

[video]https://youtu.be/KSbHlycTciM[/video]

Or this nugget that just popped up on another forum discussing a similar thing

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/the-sexual-reformation-has-opened-up-a-schism-between-women-and-men/

How long do women have to put up with:

(Senior) males behaving inappropriately – see HR explanation ^

Blame victims – see ^

Still miss basic point on why behaviour is wrong – see HR explanation ^

No wonder this problem carries on…. 😯

The ‘politician who touched my knee’ story in the press at the mo does seem to undermine the modern emancipated woman to some degree. Grow a set, or whatever the Spice Girls said.

She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says “oh, you’re pierced..”
I probably could of had her fired.

FTFY.

She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says “oh, you’re pierced..”
I probably could of had her fired.

FTFY.

This post is an excellent example of the other problem with sexual harassment that we face.

When it’s done by a man to a women, the overwhelming response will be to punish the man and protect the woman.

When it’s done by a woman to a man, the overwhelming response is to make a joke out of it.

In and of itself, this is indicative of the underlying gender biases in society.

Women are fragile and need protecting.

Men are strong and do not.

The ‘politician who touched my knee’ story in the press at the mo does seem to undermine the modern emancipated woman to some degree. Grow a set, or whatever the Spice Girls said.

JHB handled that entirely properly; she said do it again and I’ll wallop you. People need putting in their place in some instances and prosecuting in others.

The line between where those two things diverge is what we should be discussing.

or whatever the Spice Girls said.

Girl Power!

Meaning women no longer being dominated by men and standing against it, such as sexual harassment.

Talking further to the missus about this, she has accepted very welcome offers of shoulder massages from other NHS staff, and seen others do likewise. Pretty natural de-stressing in a caregiving environment. So I can fully understand TJ’s issue and boundary confusion.

Indeed early years pupils at my daughters’ school are taught to give shoulder massages to each other in class.

The idea of a world where everyone is kept at arms length and innocent acts like touching someone’s arm as reassurance, being alone with a woman in public, or shaking hands are regarded as inappropriate, is a very sad one.

Seems to me that in addition to the direct palpable harm to their victims, the perpetrators of sexual assault and power abuse have also caused a secondary harm to society itself.

No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark? Would a woman have apologised – is that another gender bias you wish to discus?
Weirdly you turn every thread into you and then when it is about you make no comment.

This post is an excellent example of the other problem with sexual harassment that we face.

When it’s done by a man to a women, the overwhelming response will be to punish the man and protect the woman.

When it’s done by a woman to a man, the overwhelming response is to make a joke out of it.

In and of itself, this is indicative of the underlying gender biases in society.

Women are fragile and need protecting.

Men are strong and do not. Man up and stop your crying.

Meaning women no longer being dominated by men and standing against it, such as sexual harassment.

Quite except that the Spice Girls didn’t invent that idea. I’m not sure who did but you could argue Elizabeth I kicked things off. It was admitedly a slow start and it wasn’t until Emmeline Pankhurst got involved and Emily Davison threw herself under the King’s horse that the idea started to gather momentum.

But I guess female emancipation really crystalised into a movement in the 60s and 70. ‘The Female Eunuch’ is an excellent and inspiring text. If you’ve not read it I can highly recommend it.

If the Spice Girls prove anything though it’s the ability to turn an important idea already gestated, born and raised into full adulthood into an infatilised idea that you can repackage and give birth to all over again knowing full well that you’ll be able to sell records off the back of it.

Seriously, a whole generation of emancipated, self actualised and high achieving women hung their heads in shame when the Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.

Junkyard – lazarus
No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark?

TBH I was applying Onions 1st Law. Hence my banter response.

GrahamS – you’ve pretty much nailed it. I think calmer heads are required. The current climate makes monsters of us all. There has to be a compromise where physical contact can be seen/accepted as non-sexual and where folk aren’t afraid to treat workmates of all genders and sexualities equally.

No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark?

Junky do you have children?

Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.

WOW! You went well off track there.

I was present when my friend was given his lung cancer diagnosis. There was him, me the doctor and a young nurse present. The moment he got the news he shed a tear, at which point the nurse jumped in and gave him a wonderful long comforting hug, I guessed that was why she was there.
I would not want that to change.

Seriously, a whole generation of emancipated, self actualised and high achieving women hung their heads in shame when the Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.

Apologies for the non-pc language but you’re mental mate.