Self defence

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  • Self defence
  • Junkyard
    Member

    Aye that’s not self defence.

    Disagree but it all depends.
    If someone overtakes you dangerously gets out a vehicle and walks towards you aggressively saying/swearing/shouting/screaming they are going to hit you – this would surely always be the story anyway- then I dont think you need to wait until they hit you to hit them ;it seems reasonable to assume they will hit you anyway and you are under threat as they are not coming over for a cuddle are they

    I think the key is who gets out the vehicle and does the walking towards as they are generally considered to be the aggressor/threatening as they can shout from a distance for example.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Cycling shoes are not fighting shoes. You really need to knock him out with the first punch…

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    The bloke who hit me didn’t say anything as he approached me.

    Having done conflict resolution training at work I now know that he was in ‘attack’ mode. Focussed, quiet, eyes wide open and staring at me, arms stiff and at the side of his body, walking very quickly but not running, like some primeval ‘stalking’ reflex. I’m glad I was wearing my helmet as it did a good job of blocking his punches.

    The couple of people I’ve seen shouting and gesticulating actually have quite a relaxed body, they’re less tense, but moving around more. Probably fit in the ‘all bark, no bite’ category. The ones to worry about are those who don’t bark at all but are still coming towards you.

    First thing to do is get off the bike. You probably can’t accelerate as quick as you think,not compared to someone who’s already out of the van and coming towards you. Unless there’s a cut through within 20 yards that he can’t get his van through then I’d be off the bike (it’s hard to defend yourself against a gentle shove, let alone a flurry of punches, while you’re astride a bike), using it as a shield and telling him to get back in his van. Adding a ‘sir’ might be enough to confuse him (the police are the only people who say ‘sir’ nowadays so it sounds authoritative).

    If he does come at you then use the bike, rearrange the skin on his shins with the chainrings!

    Then get away and report it before he does.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    Personally I find that a combo of flying Hard Kick, Crouch Hard Punch, Hadoken sorts out most people…

    …but only if you are Ryu

    Premier Icon nach
    Subscriber

    Get off the bike is very good advice, very little scope for movement or staying upright if you’re still on it.

    Also, regardless of self defence*:
    Balled fist: GBH
    Open hand: ABH

    *disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.

    I think getting in a fight indicates enormously bad luck or colossally bad judgement, but in any case, unless they’re trying to kill you it’s generally best to err toward the less aggressive.

    guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

    i pointed out that wouldnt be difficult as we were outside my house, invited him to come round and sort it out anytime he wanted.

    Fantastic 🙂

    A guy once crawled alongside me and ended a foaming torrent of abuse with “I’ll knock your ****ing head off”, but sped off when I grinned at him and responded “Alright, pull over and let’s give that a go”. The passenger he was shouting across looked like she was going to die of shame.

    joolsburger
    Member

    I’ve been giving my hypothetical sceanrio a lot of thought and I reckon if your out of the van then that’s enough, a bad move to try and bully on the wrong cyclist. Like someone said he’s not coming for a cuddle and best not to wait and see what he wants.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    Also, regardless of self defence*:
    Balled fist: GBH
    Open hand: ABH

    what about elbows and knees?

    Junkyard
    Member

    You can do just as much damage with an open hand tbh

    Surely the charge is defined by HOW much damage you do not how you do it?

    IANAL

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Also, regardless of self defence*:
    Balled fist: GBH
    Open hand: ABH

    *disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.

    Yeah your not a lawyer neither am I but as I said back on page 1 it’s reasonable force. A quick bop on the nose with a fist could be argued as reasonable if the actions the threatening person seemed to be taking was the same or more.

    GBH and ABH is more the extent of how much hitting you did not alway what you used.

    Premier Icon nach
    Subscriber

    You’re probably right, but it can be taken as an indication of intent. Also, our hands are full of delicate little bones…

    Elbows and knees: Probably doesn’t stand in your favour later if you’re seen using them. What does and doesn’t look aggressive to bystanders counts for a lot, so it pays to stay calm whatever actions you take.

    A guy I trained with was attacked by someone with a knife. After disarming him and knocking him out, he did something the police b*llocked him for later, but it was effective: He talked to all of the witnesses saying “Did you see that? He tried to stab me. That guy just tried to kill me can you believe it?” etc.

    I think the best way to deal with all of these hypothetical scenarios, and especially any fear of them, is to train in some kind of self defence. Preferably something street based rather than a sport with loads of rules and mats. I was scared it would bring out or feed my aggressive side, but it actually cooled me down and brought it more under control. I’ve never, ever come close to having to use it, but the confidence and calmness that came from it really help in dealing with bad or aggressive drivers. De-escalation is almost always best, and training for worse things can help you achieve that more assertively.

    Premier Icon amedias
    Subscriber

    guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

    Years ago one of my riding buddies managed to very quickly turn such an escalation around by replying:

    “Actually, I’m on my way to work, why don’t you follow me there, it won’t take us long, you know the Police Station on XXXX road?”

    Suffice it to say the chap backed down very quickly and was terribly apologetic, just a good job he didn’t know that although my buddy did technically work at the Police station, it was as a cleaner.

    Junkyard
    Member

    but it actually cooled me down and brought it more under control. I’ve never, ever come close to having to use it, but the confidence and calmness that came from it really help in dealing with bad or aggressive drivers

    Agreed I used it once but only to lock an arm and take them down as they had pushed me twice and i knew the next one was the haymaker

    Still stayed calm and was not screaming but talking to them to calm it all down – fighting is shit and pointless.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    Surely a big part of it will come down to what you do next…

    Supposing you’ve landed a decisive, pre-emptive blow on the basis that you felt a road rage fueled attack was imminent, lets assume the driver is for the moment immobile enough to not pose a threat so you have some time to think, which of the following action(s) do you take:

    A) Just ride off…
    B) Call the police to report your involvement in the incident and await an officer?
    C) Give the driver a second or two to gather himself and check He is OK?
    D) Start looking for witnesses (ideally to corroborate your claim of self defence)?

    I reckon B and D make sense, Leaving implies either guilt or a lack of concern for the person you have just injured, being the one to contact the Police could count in your favour, but following up with enquiries as to his well being without having the rozzers on the way is dicey, better to call them and maybe inform the operator you have struck and potentially injured the driver and an ambulance may be required. He may have calmed down, he might be even more angry now, it makes general sense to start asking people if they saw what happened…

    Getting off the bike ASAP is a very good point too, you’ll not be winning any fisticuffs with 14kg of steel and plastics wedged between your legs…

    TBH as soon as the driver pulls in and get out his goal is clearly conflict of some sort and no longer making progress, and getting out of the vehicle is him leaving a relatively safe environment for that very purpose… That means a lot, I’d interpret those initial actions as an indicator of aggressive intent, never mind him actually getting as far as taking a swing at you.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    As I’m sure others have said, you have right to use reasonable force to defend yourself, and how extreme you can be depends on the circumstances as you see it at the time. There is a variety of case law out there, the Tony Martin shooting case got a lot of publicity at the time as he killed a burglar who was going away from him and was convicted. At the same a farmer near us wasn’t charged having also shot a burglar, but who was coming towards him.

    Someone was in the papers recently having been cleared for breaking a burglars arms and legs while defending himself, though I guess the tabloids were simplifying it.

    I was assaulted by a car driver while out riding a few years ago. Words were exchanged, he pulled up down the road, got out the car, made various threats and eventually pushed me through a hedge. He was cautioned for assault, his defence being that he felt so threatened by the fat middle aged bloke in Lycra that he had to stop his car, get out and defend himself.

    The copper dealing with it told me that you can shout and swear at each other all you like, but the first person to touch the other one loses as far as the law was concerned.

    I was pretty sure he was going to hit me but didn’t launch a preemptive defence as he looked like he would have really hurt me, and if he had gone to town on me I had two mates with me who – I hope – would have stepped in.

    Premier Icon tomtomthepipersson
    Subscriber

    Throw yourself to the floor and scream something along the lines of ‘not the face again/my children can’t grow up without a daddy’, then get into the foetal position and cry like a big girl/small child.

    He’ll either stick the boot in (ok, as you’re in a protective position), quickly scarper (leaving you to carry on with your ride) or come down to see if you’re ok (upper-cut to the chin, lights-out, zip-ties, back of the van)

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    Supposing you’ve landed a decisive, pre-emptive blow on the basis that you felt a road rage fueled attack was imminent, lets assume the driver is for the moment immobile enough to not pose a threat so you have some time to think, which of the following action(s) do you take

    e: Bundle him into the boot of his own car. Park it on double yellows. Wait for him to be impounded.

    Head Butts to the nose are a big no – no apparently . A serving police officer told me a head butt isnt self defence ,ever . So no nutting someone despite how effective it can be ( although in a lid with a peak it will probably go horribly wrong anyway )

    Butter on the windscreen and ride off in the other direction after removing 1 or more valve cores if your quick enough

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    Head Butts to the nose are a big no – no apparently . A serving police officer told me a head butt isnt self defence ,ever . So no nutting someone despite how effective it can be ( although in a lid with a peak it will probably go horribly wrong anyway )

    I’m not advising people to go around headbutting errant van drivers but again that does not accord with the CPS guidance, you can butt if it is reasonable force against the threat you are facing – you can use lethal force if it is appropriate – the guidance shown on page one is fairly self explanatory. As an aside we were taught nearest target, nearest weapon so headbutts could be fine as were eye gouges and biting the face if the situation demanded it. I shoud add I am also a lover not a fighter.

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    Head Butts to the nose are a big no – no apparently

    When I was attacked I ended up on the floor with my legs tangled up in the bike, one arm trapped under my back and the other on my front, pinned in between my stomach and the bloke who was on top of me and punching me in the head. If the same thing happened again (!?) and I had the presence of mind I’d headbutt him. The only other option is to lie there until he’s finished punching me and then ask him for a hand up!

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    I think the best way to deal with all of these hypothetical scenarios, and especially any fear of them, is to train in some kind of self defence. — De-escalation is almost always best, and training for worse things can help you achieve that more assertively.

    Agreed. If you think swinging at someone is a good 1st move in self defence, chances are you’re either the One-Punch Mickey type who knows they can hit very effectively (and the law would take a dim view on it if there’s any hint of previous there) or you’re like most of us, you may get lucky or more likely it won’t work out like you’re the hero in the film fight scene and you then get to find out how messy, unpredictable and dangerous those situations can be – especially if you just started it ‘proper’.

    uselesshippy
    Member

    Depends on the people as well. If your a 5’6″, 9 stone bloke, and he’s a 6’4″ meathead, you’ll probably be alright.
    If you look like a rugby player, and the van driver is 87, you’ll probably be in the shit.

Viewing 21 posts - 41 through 61 (of 61 total)

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