Self defence

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  • Self defence
  • joolsburger
    Member

    Just a hypothtical question really as I’m interested in the rules.

    If you were cycling on the road one evening and taking the lane because of parked cars and the guy in a van behind got arsey and cut you up and forced you to stop a little way down the road and came at you swearing and gesticulating and so you punched him very squarely on the hooter and no sodding mistake. Is that self defense or do you have to wait to be hit first?

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    You need to demonstrate reasonable force to deal with the threat and why you thought the threat was enough to warrant an attack.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Nope, that’s attacking the guy. Loads of people are all bark and no bite..

    Get yourself into a defensive position, then block the first attack if comes, then you can leather him(within reason), that’s self defence.

    Jamie
    Member

    I would just leave it.

    Then later on mow him down in yer motor.

    Be home in time for tea.

    joolsburger
    Member

    To me a bloke getting out of a van implies an attack is imminent, as soon as they’re in your face that’s reason enough to end it before it escalates IMHO especially at night, who knows what nutters abound, bloke could have a weapon etc etc. Surely best not to wait to be attacked.

    Premier Icon cloudnine
    Subscriber

    If you were absolutely convinced you are about to be hit then im sure you could argue self defence. Have you got a witness?

    joolsburger
    Member

    Like I said, all hypothetical.

    Jamie
    Member

    ….of course there is always the South Park defence:

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU[/video]

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    joolsburger – Member
    To me a bloke getting out of a van implies an attack is imminent, as soon as they’re in your face that’s reason enough to end it before it escalates IMHO especially at night, who knows what nutters abound, bloke could have a weapon etc etc. Surely best not to wait to be attacked.

    Not saying I would wait, just be aware the law isn’t likely to be on the side of the person that struck the first blow. It’s not self defence, it’s a preemptive attack, based on a fear that you might be attacked.

    bit like bombing **** out of iraq! 😀

    joolsburger
    Member

    In the law (which I just googled) it does specifically state that you need not wait to be attacked to mount a defense. If you have some numpty really screaming and rushing you I feel you’re well within your rights to lamp him with sufficent force to stop any silliness.

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    It’s not self defence, it’s a preemptive attack, based on a fear that you might be attacked.

    Not correct

    Pre-emptive strikes

    There is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves, (see R v Deana, 2 Cr App R 75).

    pretty much what drac said;

    A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

    self-defence; or
    defence of another; or
    defence of property; or
    prevention of crime; or
    lawful arrest.

    In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

    was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
    was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

    The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367).

    To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.

    from the CPS guidance at http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Pre-emptive

    rene59
    Member

    If you struck first in a situation where you feared for your life or were protecting your property you should be ok.

    joolsburger
    Member

    Yes indeed that one^^^^

    Only breaks the law if you get caught! Knock him out, chuck his car keys down a drain and have the cash out of his wallet. Ride off never to be seen again

    joolsburger
    Member

    I expect in my hypothtical example everyone went their separate ways without involving her majestys constabulary.

    rene59
    Member

    Then would it matter what it was?

    DT78
    Member

    So when a very similar incident happened to me, van driver pulled over got out shouting and gesturing after attempting to shove me into the curb, I simply hoped on to the pavement and rode in the opposite direction after telling him to do one. No point in entering into a situation where I might have needed to lay him out. Despite really really wanting to teach him a lesson to be careful who he picked on. Of course he might have also been in the British team for a martial art at the time or a mega hard arse, but the chances were quite slim…

    joolsburger
    Member

    Of course flight is always better than fighting – No arguements here.

    matt1986
    Member

    I worked the doors for a few years and to get your badge your taught the law on self defence because as a doorman you can only lay hands on someone in self defence that can be self defence of another person as well. But you can only nullify the threat you can’t keep hitting or kicking them when there down.

    brooess
    Member

    This anti-cycling nonsense the UK seems to be gripped by has really gone too far…

    You wouldn’t go and thump a pedestrian for walking along slowly in front of you…

    Premier Icon flap_jack
    Subscriber

    Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he’s very slow. He will then have hold of your arm, and he being burly van driver and you being skinny cyclist, you are in big trouble.

    If you must attack, gob copiously in his face and, during the second or so that you have as his arms instinctively try to defend his face, either deliver fierce blow to solar plexus / nether regions (or preferably) ride away tout suite.

    In your entirely hypothetical situation, I reckon you’d be well withing your rights to land one and claim self defence.
    He’s blocked you, left the van and is coming towards you aggressively.
    Course, if you decked him, took full mount and started pummeling his face into the pavement, the law may take an altogether dimmer view.

    Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he’s very slow. He will then have hold of your arm, and he being burly van driver and you being skinny cyclist, you are in big trouble.

    If you must attack, gob copiously in his face and, during the second or so that you have as his arms instinctively try to defend his face, either deliver fierce blow to solar plexus / nether regions (or preferably) ride away tout suite.
    Have you considered windmilling in?

    Premier Icon mrblobby
    Subscriber

    Hypothetically, you punch him in the face and cops do turn up (or they track you down) you’re potentially at the mercy of the courts. You may get off, you may end up with a conviction against your name. Not a good thing.

    Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?

    I’d turn around and ride off before he gets out of his van.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    brooess – Member
    This anti-cycling nonsense englandshire seems to be gripped by has really gone too far…

    fixed that for ye.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    kilo – Member

    someone shouting and swearing at ye is not fair game to lamp them one, i’m pretty sure the courts would agree with me on that! 😀

    russ295
    Member

    Best form of self defence. Not to put your self in a situation that requires violence.
    Hitting someone is the last the last resort but if some one is coming at you….I certainly wouldn’t wait until he had hit me first!!!!

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?

    Tell them the sun was in your eyes and you didn’t see him as you did an air punch for getting a KOM on a strava run.

    taxi25
    Member

    As said you don’t have to wait to be hit before you defend youself. But in 40yrs of cycling I can count he number of properly hard ( fighting ) cyclists I’ve met on one hand. The two just don’t seem to go together. Of course Stw members buck this trend Lol. I’m 53 and not had a fight since school, don’t confront, don’t provoke 99.9% of situations can be sorted with a calm attitude and a few well chosen words.

    user-removed
    Member

    Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he’s very slow

    What rot. Quick feint with the left, jab on the button then rake your Sidis down his shin, landing the heel square on the top of his foot.

    I am a WARRIOR!aaa!11!

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    No you don’t need to let him hit you first. Just like armed police don’t need to let armed criminals fire first.

    All depends on the facts and circumstances. His age, size, and weight versus yours. What was he shouting? Was he on his own? Were you on your own? Was it verbals only? Was he clenching his fists or adopting a fighting stance? Were the verbals about your cycling or was he threatening to assault you?

    Once you punch him when do you stop? Will he get the best of it? If you are sure you would win a fight with him then maybe the threat isn’t big enough to justify a pre-emptive punch?

    Lots to go wrong with relying on self defence. As suggested best avoided altogether by riding off as the van stops.

    Premier Icon vincienup
    Subscriber

    Drac – Moderator
    Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?
    Tell them the sun was in your eyes and you didn’t see him as you did an air punch for getting a KOM on a strava run.

    SMIDSY? Naughty but funny…

    sbob
    Member

    A relative of mine was punched to the floor and then kicked in the head whilst unconscious resulting in him needing to learn to walk and talk again and the perpetrator got away with it so I’m guessing you’d be alright.

    sbob
    Member

    “I punched him and he fell to the floor but I was worried he would get up and attack me so I stamped on his face”

    That was about the size of it.

    rayyoung
    Member

    I once had a situation where I felt as though I was going to be hit, I was off the bike with it between me and him, I simply lifted it up in front of me so that if he did go for me I could shove it at him to stop any blows or even force him to the ground with the bike and me on top. He had a sudden change of heart and backed away just giving me verbals.

    hora
    Member

    Take your helmet off asap. Your no longer a cyclist.

    Yes that could be ‘hes getting ready’

    But I found it helps with de-escaltion too.

    project
    Member

    Always best to run/cycleaway.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    It all depends which bike I’m on and therefore, what shoes I’m wearing. Trying to punch someone while wearing road cleats my just nd up being very silly.

    dirk_pumpa
    Member

    Aye that’s not self defence.. What you should have done is wait for him to engage you, pull guard, then slap a triangle on the sucker.

    soobalias
    Member

    when this happened to me, van driver mounted the pavement to go round me, i made an obvious vanker gesture (after he passed me he had to stop for the oncoming car) the guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

    i pointed out that wouldnt be difficult as we were outside my house, invited him to come round and sort it out anytime he wanted.

    never saw him again.

    as above, most folk are all bark and no bite, its only adrenaline that has got them out of the vehicle (safety cage)
    pre-emptive strike will always put you on shaky ground with the law.

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