There is a purpose to punctuality and safe driving.

Indeed, and both more effectively achieved if people understand why and the possible consequences for them or society rather than the punishment for failing to conform.  Perhaps the roads would be safer in the future if we instilled in young people a little bit of empathy rather than reinforcing the it’s ok so long as you don’t get caught mentality of their parents?

Indeed, and both more effectively achieved if people understand why and the possible consequences for them or society rather than the punishment for failing to conform.

That was my point: enforcing rules that serve no purpose just invites resentment.

enforcing rules that serve no purpose just invites resentment.

Here’s a good one. Like many schools, my daughters school strictly enforces uniform rules. This includes not being allowed to remove your blazer whilst on school grounds, unless given explicit permission by a teacher, even in the middle of summer. Also, in winter when it’s freezing and pissing down, pupils are not allowed to wear overcoats, shells or fleeces, as they are not uniform, so they have to remove them when in school and carry them around with them all day instead of wearing them. Any contravention of uniform rules results in a detention. Bloody stupid.

You honestly conflate the NFL black lives matter protest with a simple mark of respect to stand up when an adult enters a room?

Christ, some of you lot are throwbacks to the Victorian era. I attended an old fashioned Grammar school and even that didn’t require standing when a teacher entered the room.

I wouldn’t stand now when anybody entered the room. What purpose would or does it serve? If you think it’s a sign of respect I really pity you. It is forced compliance for the sake of power. Or, in other words, utter bollocks. It’s not even remotely comparable to driving sensibly.

You honestly conflate the NFL black lives matter protest with a simple mark of respect to stand up when an adult enters a room?

You honestly think it is a mark of respect for adults? Why should any adult demand respect of anyone and how does standing achieve this? Some things are left in the past for a reason.

My son started school this year and I was genuinely impressed with how things have improved since my day. You know, progress, wherein things change for the better and archaic practices are left by the wayside. That sort of thing.

You honestly conflate the NFL black lives matter protest with a simple mark of respect to stand up when an adult enters a room?

You honestly conflate respect with grudging compliance? Top tip: it’s not 1950.

Remember this is a school that had discipline problems.  Setting a hardf line as this head has done is one well proven way of setting a new standard of behaviour and its very siminlar tothe zero tolerance approach.

Yes the rules seem petty but they are their for good reason.  To promote a better standard of discipline in school.  A reason known to work and adopted by many successful headteachers.

Full disclosure. I’m another teacher on the thread.

Really don’t want to get drawn in to this, but some of the comments here are unbelievable and demonstrate totally (assuming that some of you posting here have kids) why there can be behaviour / opposition / defiance issues in schools – as long as you agree that parental influence is an important factor in shaping young people’s attitudes.

Anyway, from the Gov.uk website…

Schools don’t have to give parents notice of after-school detentions or tell them why a detention has been given.

Having said that, it’s good safeguarding practice to advise home of the detention in advance where possible (note – schools do not require parental permission to detain a student within certain guidelines). For example, our school will not detain students for a same day, no notice detention for longer than 10 minutes but we do run scheduled 1 hour detentions that parents get at least 24 hours notice of.

Some interesting research that shows that a 3 minute detention is as effective as a much longer one as long as it’s close in time to the ‘offence’ and is used to actually address the behaviour rather than just punish it. Meta-cognition and all that.

Yes the rules seem petty but they are their for good reason.  To promote a better standard of discipline in school.

Petty rules, by definition, have no good reason. If a school wishes to improve behaviour then it should do it through rules that serve a purpose. Anything else is a fig leaf.

Petty rules, by definition, have no good reason. If a school wishes to improve behaviour then it should do it through rules that serve a purpose. Anything else is a fig leaf.

Problem is (as this thread shows) that understanding of that purpose is pretty subjective.

Not going to say whether I agree with the standing up thing or not, but I totally understand it’s actual purpose (and definite positive impact) in some schools – all depends on context.

Pupils to stand when a teacher enters the classroom

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Petty rules, by definition, have no good reason. If a school wishes to improve behaviour then it should do it through rules that serve a purpose. Anything else is a fig leaf.

And…

So, you’ve raised a few million quid to open a free school in your town. What would your rules/expectations/sanctions be?

And…

So, you’ve raised a few million quid to open a free school in your town. What would your rules/expectations be?

Leaving aside the abomination that is free schools…

In the first instance I would ask the pupils. What do you think they would say?

Ignoring your dodging of the question, I know pretty much what they’d say (since it’s something that pretty much every teacher does every year with every new class). I also know you wouldn’t get any useful consensus (at least not without guiding the conversation) since students, like all people, have different opinions on stuff. So, you might get responses ranging from “Let us do what we want” to “We need to be told exactly what to do and how to do it so everything’s fair”.

At my car  crash of a comprehensive school we had to do the ‘stand up when a teacher / year head / headmaster ‘ enters  the room thing.

Alot of our class rooms had  back doors ,that entered other classrooms. One day the deputy head enterd the class I was in this way. I was working away , head down and concentrating and failed to notice him enter, then everyone stand to attention.

The nasty spiteful bully grabbed my arm and yanked me out of my chair, forcing it to fall  backwards and as he hauled me to my feet  screamed in my face ” You know  your supposed to stand when a teacher enters the room”

He left bruises on my arm and me in tears . Which in this school  left you open for more bullying .  The adult thing to do would have been to stand next to my desk , let me catch a whiff of cheap cigarettes and coffee that most teachers seemd to carry around with them in 80’s and politly clear his throat . But nope, 6ft 2″ and 16st of rage  was targeted on me personally that morning .hope hes dead now.

Really don’t want to get drawn in to this, but some of the comments here are unbelievable and demonstrate totally (assuming that some of you posting here have kids) why there can be behaviour / opposition / defiance issues in schools

Indeed, I also really enjoy any posts that start with “when I was at school”

You honestly conflate the NFL black lives matter protest with a simple mark of respect to stand up when an adult enters a room?

Do you stand up when an adult enters the room?

<p>We used to stand until invited to sit down by our teachers, never thought anything of it, still don’t. About same level as holding doors open for people I guess.</p><p></p><p>Courtesy is not the same as respect. </p>

Do you stand up when an adult enters the room?

In most equivalent situations yes.  I don’t stand every time my wife comes into the room of an evening, but say I went to meet a client to give a presentation at his offices, was shown into the meeting room by the receptionist and was waiting for the attendees to arrive. When someone comes in then, yes I would stand to greet them. Would you just sit there? It’s a respect thing, not subservience or archaic victorian nature, it’s courtesy that is sadly lacking at my kids school. Maybe I should sit there until the newcomer has earned my respect…….

Yes absolutely there are bigger issues they have to (and are) dealing with as well but when a school is plummeting in its standards you have to go hard.

@stm – that’s just sadism, has nothing to do with the standing or not. No place for that sort of bullying, and I wouldn’t tolerate it from a teacher now either.

There seems to be an assumption that the teachers at the school have all become victorian floggers overnight, of course they haven’t. If a kid hasn’t got his tie done up, where in the past it would probably be let ride, now it’ll be requested that it is done up. If the kid kicks off, they’ll be sanctioned appropriately – but frankly the kid that kicks off over that sort of thing will likely also be the one disrupting lessons with their behaviour. It might be a bit like getting Capone for tax evasion, but the trouble makers will be causing trouble whatever.

Re the OP; argumentative git that i am I went and looked up policy on this and the 3 way agreement all new pupils and parents sign on joining the school includes permission for the school to issue detentions for a short period after school without prior notification. I’ve pointed this out to the ‘how dare they hold my child back without my permission’ crew on the FB page and I shall be attending parent’s evening in disguise from now on, given the responses. Sod em, someone needs to back our hard pressed teachers up and I’m taking a stand.

When someone comes in then, yes I would stand to greet them. Would you just sit there? It’s a respect thing, not subservience or archaic victorian nature, it’s courtesy that is sadly lacking at my kids school.

we’re never going to agree here, but if you can’t see the difference between a formal meeting where (like it or not) one still has the option to stand and forcing people to stand or suffer consequences for failure to do so, then I don’t know what to say.

Different opinions and all that. Forcing people to conform is never the best option and breeds resentment not respect.

This still backs my theory that the biggest problem with education at the moment is parents.

I agree that we aren’t going to agree, that’s for sure. I’m also not surprised at the split on here between the ‘school’s rules, live with it’ and ‘stupid rules should be ignored’ groups; no different to what i see on the infernal FB page.

But

forcing people to stand or suffer consequences

is not REALLY what’s happening here is it? Pupils are being asked to stand because it is a mark of respect / politeness for a teacher or other adult entering the room. If someone forgot, or wasn’t paying attention, or whatever I very much doubt they’d be punished directly for it. That would come if they refuse subsequently, same as it would for directly disobeying any other reasonable request from a teacher.and if you can’t see that I also don’t know what to say.

This still backs my theory that the biggest problem with education at the moment is parents.

Yes and no. There’s a lot wrong at the school, that the new head is trying to fix. It’s not all the parents fault. But one thing I’m sure of is that it’s a 3-way deal between school, pupils and parents and if any part of that doesn’t meet their obligations the other two suffer.

What if we call it courtesy rather than respect. If I meet one if my mates I will stand up when they arrive to shake their hand. Do you let your kids start their dinner before everyone has theirs too?

Some may see stuff like this as pointless, however most is designed to make people actually thoughtful towards others.

There are many reasons a school might pick a small seemingly silly thing to focus on.

Lots of schools are going through a tough time, lack of support staff funding and a tangible “couldn’t give a ****” attitude to education from some pupils and parents.

These little things are a way to start to get the whole school pulling together. Everyone acting the same way.

We have a real issue at my school. It should be quiet but we’ve been in the papers on BBC a few times lately, there’s been assaults on staff and pupils, a police presence in corridors and knives found on pupils. When parents don’t gaf how a does a school (given that stats say only influence 20% of the pupils life) turn it round? What seem silly and inconsequential might well be the baby steps to trying to build a better school community.

I’ll happily take any of you into my classroom so you can see how it has changed since you were at school both from the pressure on kids and behaviour but as always it’s easier to be outside the tent pissing in.  In a world where opinions count and experience and experts are ridiculed it’s he who shouts loudest is correct.

Pupils are being asked to stand because it is a mark of respect / politeness for a teacher or other adult entering the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lRGIkLEYoA

I went to a boarding school with some fairly strict rules – can’t say it did me any harm.

Yes we had to stand when a teacher entered the classroom, it soon just became an automatic thing. I can’t say I stood in respect for the teacher but I guess it does emphasize a difference between pupil and teacher which isn’t a bad thing.

Our detentions were an hour and we had to complete a set number of lines in that time (else we’d be back the next day), was a ballache but didn’t scar me for life and was sufficient punishment I generally tried to avoid it and stick to the rules (even the ones I didn’t really approve of).

Given I still led protests against the quality of the school food and some other stuff (even managed a week’s suspension) I think I’d have been a bit of a nightmare to control in a more relaxed atmosphere and ultimately it would have been me that suffered as I wouldn’t have got the same education

Our detention procedure was a slip of paper you had to take home for parents to sign, different colour slips for more serious offences. White – 30min with teacher, blue – 60min with teacher, yellow 60min with head of year, pink – 60min with headmaster! If you got a pink you’d end up on report too…

White & blue were dished out for fun and I used to just forge mums signature so the rents never knew – was still always home way before them anyway! Yellow or pink were followed up with a phone call home so I’d end up grounded too!! Double bubble!

tbh i never really minded DT’s. you got to just do your homework which id have to find time for anyway, was often a bonus having the teacher there to help.

The problem with after school detentions is the differing effect it has on kids:

Live close to the school and it means being 30 minutes late getting home.

Live out of town and it means a mile and half walk into town down badly lit roads to wait for an hour for a bus you have to pay for (bus passes are specific to the school bus) so you’re probably looking at being two hours late.

Detentions should kept to lunch times and breaks to level the effect it has on the pupils.

To put some of the pointless school rules into perspective.

at work like at school we have a dress code for the office and a more strict one for client visits. If this is not respected you lose your job it’s not a 30 min detention.

when new people enter the meeting room or work area we stand up to meet them. I don’t see this as some archaic horror that crushes my will to live.

Pretty much the same basic rules we had at school I can see in most of the workplaces I have been in possibly more so outside of the UK (particularly India and the ME). These basic niceties can make a huge difference to career advancement.

there will always be rules that seem pointless and their will always be some **** on a power trip. If you cannot accept this and move on with life you end up holding yourself back.

say I went to meet a client to give a presentation at his offices, was shown into the meeting room by the receptionist and was waiting for the attendees to arrive. When someone comes in then, yes I would stand to greet them. Would you just sit there?

That’s a completely different scenario. You also want them to give you money.

Do you stand up when a colleague walks into the office on a morning?

WTF do these teachers think they are?

Maybe if they got their shit together they wouldn’t feel the need to control groups of children in this manner, but as they all work 80 hour weeks, every week, I guess they need something, apart from 4 months off a year.

Sod em, someone needs to back our hard pressed teachers up and I’m taking a stand.

Good for you.  If only more people would do this.

Oh look Gobuchul has joined the thread; HOUSE!

WTF do these teachers think they are?

They are just the people who sign your kids passport application, nothing more than that.

Pffft.

is not REALLY what’s happening here is it? Pupils are being asked to stand because it is a mark of respect / politeness for a teacher or other adult entering the room. If someone forgot, or wasn’t paying attention, or whatever I very much doubt they’d be punished directly for it. That would come if they refuse subsequently, same as it would for directly disobeying any other reasonable request from a <span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>teacher.and</span>if you can’t see that I also don’t know what to say.

I conpletely agree with obeying a reasonable request. As to is that what’s happening regarding not standing, I don’t know, it’s not happening at my sons school. If there aren’t consequences it’s even more pointless. Detentions are a good idea, Standing just seems a bit bloody weird to me.

at work like at school we have a dress code for the office and a more strict one for client visits. If this is not respected you lose your job it’s not a 30 min detention.

when new people enter the meeting room or work area we stand up to meet them. I don’t see this as some archaic horror that crushes my will to live.

Where do you work, North Korea?

I seriously cannot understand the negativity on this thread. WTF is wrong with instilling a bit of politeness and understanding of rules and how to follow them??

This school sounds like it has issues, that are trying to be fixed. Giving it a new baseline is a good thing.

Is there a reason for standing when a teacher enters? Yes, its a lesson. There is a rule and you follow it. We do not get to only follows Laws (rules) which we agree with (although watching a lot of drivers you would think they are optional!), so teaching kids this at an early age makes it become ingrained.

Uniforms? Most people (not many on STW by the sounds of it) work in an environment where you have to wear a uniform and thats it, end of, again why not teach this earlier in life with a simple where the uniform stated.

Are detentions a good thing or bad thing? Well as in THIS case there is an agreement in place which says no prior notice then guess what parents… suck it up. You agreed, end of.

@Richie

The problem with after school detentions is the differing effect it has on kids:

Live close to the school and it means being 30 minutes late getting home.

Live out of town and it means a mile and half walk into town down badly lit roads to wait for an hour for a bus you have to pay for (bus passes are specific to the school bus) so you’re probably looking at being two hours late.

Detentions should kept to lunch times and breaks to level the effect it has on the pupils.

This is called consequences. Every action has them and some are good, some not so good. I wonder if there is a lesson in this???

This is called consequences. Every action has them and some are good, some not so good. I wonder if there is a lesson in this???

The point is that the same punishment has significantly different consequences to different pupils.  I wasn’t arguing for no punishments, just for punishments which affect those being punished equally

This is called consequences. Every action has them and some are good, some not so good. I wonder if there is a lesson in this???

It it would appear you missed the lesson where it was explained that there is never a need for more than one question mark. 😉

I seriously cannot understand the negativity on this thread. WTF is wrong with instilling a bit of politeness and understanding of rules and how to follow them??

There’s a massive difference between politeness and deference. I’ve taught my kids to be polite by telling them everyone deserves respect no matter who they are and they should treat others how they wish to be treated themselves. I’ve also taught them to always question authority (within reason) if it appears that that authority is being misused. If a rule is to be followed, then there needs to be a good reason for it, and those subjected to them should understand what those reasons are. Some of the rules my kids are asked to follow at school seem to have very little justification and appear to be there just to exercise control and enforce conformity. I don’t really see how that helps my kids in either their education or wider development. Is it too much to ask that my kids should enjoy school, not live in fear of it?

Where do you work, North Korea?

List of places I have been based in to work.. UK, France, Italy, Australia, UAE, Israel, USA other’s were just meetings and visits.

The most formal places where everyone stands to greet would be the US and ME. Least formal would be UK or France. Believe it or not we would have a basic cultural induction before going to some places.

by and large the way we act in the UK is considered rude by many cultures. We rush around and do not do all the respectful tributes. It works fine as long as you only need to interact with people from the UK who also don’t care about old conventions.