Viewing 36 posts - 161 through 196 (of 196 total)
  • scottish sectarianism
  • Premier Icon druidh
    Free Member

    Is singing “Flower of Scotland”, which celebrates a Scottish victory on the battlefield against the English and then exhorts the audience to “rise again”, also bigoted and the sign of a terrorist?

    Premier Icon olympus
    Free Member

    To be fair our national anthem isnt overly nice to the Scotch…

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    Is singing “Flower of Scotland”, which celebrates a Scottish victory on the battlefield against the English and then exhorts the audience to “rise again”, also bigoted and the sign of a terrorist?

    not really the sign of a happy united kingdom is it? weapons change, i suppose you could say that Alex Salmond’s actions are the rise again, a movement towards a free scotland?

    Premier Icon Waderider
    Free Member

    I just realised that the definition of bigotry-

    “A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices”

    is TJ summed up perfectly 😆

    Premier Icon yossarian
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    It’s Scots not Scotch

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    @waderider lol

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    anyway, back to my question from this morning. There are racist/sectarian bigots in Scotland but the numbers would never be great enough to lead to a civil war/insurrection in the manner of Irish History breaking out, that about right. So even if Scotland were to get independence and no longer be able to blame the English for there problems they would not turn upon themselves?

    Premier Icon Waderider
    Free Member

    mrmo – I hope that enhanced national pride arising from independence might go some way towards solving Scotlands national ills.

    Premier Icon olympus
    Free Member

    It’s Scots not Scotch

    I know, I’m just being daft.

    Just a bit of banter which many of the old firm can’t take part in. I’m a Rangers fan, have been for years but theyre not my main team, Im a Black and White Geordie through and through, season ticket holder and I just go upto Ibrox when I can. But the on the whole looking in, the bigotry is disgusting. I’ve got loads of friends who are Celtic fans and I enjoy the banter of who’s on top, but the people you meet that just dismiss you out of hand because you’re a Rangers fan is a joke. And I fully assume the same thing happens to Celtic fans too.

    i went and watched the Dundee match the other night with my housemate and her friend, who turned out to be a Celtic fan from Dublin. He was rather angry when he found out I was a Rangers fan but we chatted and although he was getting wound up with the score he was never out of order with me. He did mention that he wanted to glass a couple of Rangers fans in the pub, in Newcastle. Bizzare.

    Anyway, we left, I shook his hand and said it was nice to meet him, good banter, 3 in a row and all that and we went our seperate ways. He later texts my housemate to say he still likes her but he can not be friends with me because of who I am, what I support and what I’ve done to his family, race and religion over the past 400+ years. I’m only 25!

    What a ignorant bigoted fool. I’m not religious, I’ve got plenty of Catholics in my family, I’m not from Ireland, and I’ve never met his family. And I wasn’t planning on being best friends with him anyway, he was an aquaintance.

    I doubt the bigotry will ever disappear from the old firm, nor will it from NI, but the fact that swaithes of fans flock over the irish sea to bring their problems to Ibrox and Parkhead its not really a surprise. I’m in no way saying this is caused by that fact, just adding to an already existing problem.

    And that poppy banner at that game at parkhead in November was an absolute disgrace. I do not believe the club knew nothing about it due to the sheer size of it, coupled with the fact they dont allow the british legion to sell poopies outside the ground.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    olympus – i think we can all agree, that guys a cock, and not unique in the celtic support, like I say we have our ills.

    Premier Icon olympus
    Free Member

    This thing is, he wasnt, on the face of it. He was a nice bloke, we had a laugh and seemed to get on, but then this irrational hatred obviously comes to the fore and he just cant get past it. Once I’d left I wasnt a mate’s mate anymore, I was a Rangers fan, the enemy or whatever. Completely irrational, and sadly you just can sort stuff like that out.

    Premier Icon deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Yeah, we’re all loike dat.

    Premier Icon GlitterGary
    Free Member

    Remember kids, Catholic Schools brainwash you into being an IRA terrorist.

    The Daily Mail says so.

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    I am a Northern Irish protestant, which should skew my opinion towards some of the above polemics, but singing IRA songs most certainly does not automatically make you a bigot.

    No it doesn’t necessarily make you a bigot (although in 30 odd years I’ve found it to be a pretty good indicator) but it does make you an apologist for thugs and terrorists. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the origins of the IRA back in the early part of the 20th Century are (and there are those who know way more than me on that topic) the fact is that is what the IRA became and that is what singing those means today.

    Premier Icon Waderider
    Free Member

    gonefishin – what you say makes a lot more sense, and is a defensible position.

    Time can whitewash history, and so a song about the Original IRA perhaps carries less baggage than it used to. Each incarnation of the IRA (Official, Provisional, Continuity, Real) probably has less support than the prior, and has been less morally or socially justifiable (read more evil). The songs are about the original IRA and as such the songs are now more like folk music. Just because they are often misappropriated doesn’t mean every rendition is by bigots. Not in the dictionary sense anyway. You could argue some folk who sing them have strong political views, but a total inability to see their viewpoint can in turn make you a bigot.

    Tolerance is a very difficult thing to cultivate, it seems to me that Scottish Football is so polar and tribal I just wish the old firm would disappear. Glentoran and Linfield aren’t much better. But the problem is wider than just football of course, that’s just a shop front for it.

    Premier Icon stuartie_c
    Free Member

    Here’s what I think right now. Not that it really matters to anyone here…

    I’ve been a Celtic fan since I was a nipper and too young to understand all the **** bullshit that surrounds this petty, moronic Old Firm issue. I love watching Celtic play and I can’t help getting a visceral thrill when they win, particularly against Rangers.

    I know and like lots of people who are Rangers fans. They are intelligent, rational people. Sadly the same can’t be said for all their fellow supporters. Nor can it be said for all my fellow supporters. Buried in all this week’s media clamour is a story of a Celtic fan jailed for 3 months for racist abuse of El Hadji Diouf. Quite rightly so.

    Celtic fans will always take the opportunity to point out the frequent misdemeanours of Rangers fans like the laying-to-waste of Manchester in the 2008 UEFA Cup final. There is the ever-present spectre of sectarian singing; accusations most frequently levelled at Rangers fans for the Billy Boys. However, I cringe just as much when I hear The Boys of The Old Brigade being sung at Celtic away games.

    Recent events have just sickened me though. That a group of people are so **** up over this that they send bullets and bombs in the post, or turn up to a training ground with a firearm is a very dangerous escalation of a hatred which makes me ashamed to live in Scotland. The “third world” jibes and tags from ill-informed trolls have an unfortunate ring of truth, I’m afraid.

    Anyone who insinuates that Neil Lennon “brings it upon himself” by being a bit prickly or confrontational, or by being a Catholic from Lurgan is an apologist for the behaviour of the cretins who are escalating this to a very dangerous level. It’s a bit like excusing the behaviour of the moron who abused El Hadji Diouf because he “brings it on himself” by being an aggressive arse. It also has echoes of the “she deserves to be raped, dressing like that” attitude.

    Much as I love my football team, I think the best thing for society is for Rangers to beat Killie on Sunday. If it avoids someone being murdered in Glasgow, then it’s the best outcome. Sad to say, but I think Celtic need to leave the SPL and be forever separated from their Old Firm twin. Let them both seek their separate fortunes in different leagues and never the twain shall meet.

    Premier Icon olympus
    Free Member

    I think you’re right Stuartie.

    My sister lives just outside Glasgow and a guy she works with is a Celtic fan, as is his 5 year old son. The little nipper is Celtic mad and while out with his dad one day in Glasgow city centre, they bump into none other than Neil Lennon. This bloke plucks up the courage to stop Lennon and ask if he’d mind getting his photo taken with the little lad. Lennon agrees and squats down next to this little 5 year old now with a massive grin.

    While my sisters friend is taking the photo, countless people walk past and say “you f***** f****n c***”

    I think its very hard for an educated, sane person to grasp this ludacris mentallity. Saying that, Nicky Campbell was on radio five and said “He thought that the Hearts fan would have been a Rangers fan in a Hearts shirt” the media LOVE the sectarianism and inflame it no end.

    Premier Icon bravohotel8er
    Free Member

    If I was ultra-rich, I think it’d be quite entertaining to invest £1,000,000,000 in Partick Thistle and turn them into an Old Firm dwarfing peace ‘n love juggernaut. Just for a laugh.

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    BH8; David Murray tried to buy Ayr United before he bought Castle Greyskull and all it’s fittings…..He was knocked back by the board! Thank God,I am from Kilmarnock and would never had heard the end of it from the shoe thieves (err Ayr supporting members of my family)

    And even today Catholics are barred from the marrying into the british royal family, a dynasty imposed to prevent a catholic sitting on the british throne.

    POSTED 8 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST.

    I liked this bit the most,but what do I know about history? Only have a post-grad in the subject (Immigrants and Exiles;The Migration of the Gael) Now tell us that the one about how the famine was caused by uncaring British Landlords,and was introduced to clear the land (I have heard this theory before)

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    @duckman, so as an historian, you will know well that history is not a fixed science, and as they say is written by the winners. But it can also be written by the losers. Why was William of orange invited to sit on the british throne in place of the rightful James Stuart. I say rightful as by birth he was first in line, William was further down the list.

    Truth does not matter to a great extent, it is feeling that matters. Would you say that the british apparently denying aid to the irish during the famine did not cause ill will, the pointlessness of many of the famine roads, the mass emmigration from the west of Ireland, the continued export of grain throughout the famine period, or to look at other time points that the actions of Oliver Cromwell, the easter uprising, etc are all irrelevant? Like the epic of gilgamesh if you look at any story there is often a truth, but over time it is distorted to suit the aims of the teller. For both Ireland and Scotland i guess the need is to find that truth and unwind the propaganda of both sides and move forward.

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    Billy got the gig as he was a Prod,as you say. He was also a military leader and had no love of France.The Stuarts,if you want to quote 300yo history, had actually ursurped the Lord of The Isles themselves 300 years before that.The last two reasons,coupled with the absolute ineptitude of the Stuart house kind of sealed the deal,especially to a parliment wanting to move away from absolutism. Trying to suggest it is a plot aginst Catholics is missing 66% of the picture.
    The potato blight arrived, the Government refused to provide relief, set armed guards to stores and forced the poor off their lands where many starved of died trying to fish. Meanwhile the absentee landlords sat in London uncaring about….Scotland.Ollie C visited us as well,admittedly he killed more Irish,but we had better hiding places.As for the Easter uprising,didn’t exactly have the will of the people that one did it? Act of treason,during a war,at a time when you could still get hung for a number of reasons,always going to end badly.To use these as examples of British oppression,which a lot of people do, is just displaying lack of intellect IMO.
    As an aside,did you know 10% of the tatties in Ireland still die of the blight?

    Premier Icon deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    To use these as examples of British oppression,which a lot of people do, is just displaying lack of intellect IMO.

    Hey, listen, I’m over all the famine stuff. But, how is what happened an “un”-intellectual example of oppression?

    As an aside,did you know 10% of the tatties in Ireland still die of the blight?

    Yes, I attend the funerals every year. It’s a terrible pity to see a spud going to waste. 😉

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    Yes what you say is true, I am making the point that you can make history fit the story you want to tell.

    How you get people to look beyond the past and move on? Is there still a grudge against the nordic peoples for the viking raids?

    Premier Icon j_me
    Free Member

    …actually I can’t be arsed.

    Premier Icon mansonsoul
    Free Member

    I’ve just left Glasgow, but I used to work opposite ibrox. It was awful when there was a match on, and when there was an old firm match it was just horrendous. I’m very much an outsider to all this, but I do just wish people everywhere could just calm down and be civil at least. One thing I do laugh at is the ‘riot’ that happened in kelvingrove park on the royal wedding. A few dozen people were arrested and there were a few FPN’s issued. Old Firm games have hundreds of both every single time. Old Firm games are riots! 😆

    Premier Icon El-bent
    Free Member

    Is singing “Flower of Scotland”, which celebrates a Scottish victory on the battlefield against the English and then exhorts the audience to “rise again”, also bigoted and the sign of a terrorist?

    I don’t think people south of the border are bothered by it. They’re quite happy to let them sing it as winning against the English didn’t happen very often.

    Premier Icon haggis1978
    Free Member

    to seosamh77
    so i’ve not really read the whole of this thread as it just too damn long and my t-break aint! anyway just a quick reply. if you sing bigoted IRA songs then you are an ignorant man who promotes violent reactions from other ignorant men. i am a rangers fan who used to be a season ticket holder and sat in front of someone just like you seosamh77.

    i have a friend,who is a celtic fan, who’s sister is a charge nurse in the A+E dept of the Royal Infirmary. Every old firm game they get overrun with idiots who have been out attacking each other with samurai swords, iron bars, knives etc etc and are literally taking bits off other peoples bodies and killing each other. The A+E dept now has a permanent police prescence in the on such days as they would continue the fighting in the hospital. This is the violoence you promote by singing your stupid IRA songs you stupid man. And the same goes to any of my fellow rangers fans who sing the Sash and all that other bollocks. You are ignorant and stupid. Take a walk up to the A+E after an old firm game to see if i’m lying and you will see these idiots and there families being torn to bits by the violence that your sectarian singing envokes.

    Premier Icon j_me
    Free Member

    Those days are passed now, and in the past they must remain

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    you do have to laugh at the reaction, celtic fan in singing IRA song, shocker! 😀

    haggis1978 – the violence surrounding celtic and rangers is nothing to do with the songs I think you’ll find it has a shitload more to do with the astromonical surge in alcohol intake during these days.

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    DD

    Hey, listen, I’m over all the famine stuff. But, how is what happened an “un”-intellectual example of oppression?

    I didn’t say that,the same thing happened all over the UK, so adopting a mentality,and in some cases belief, that it was only poor Irish farmers who suffered,to justify singing all about how “The Brits came and murdered the widow next door and tonight they are coming for us.” (piss take example,though I am willing to bet there is at least on song in the Parkhead top 40 which is in a similar vein.)is what I was pointing out.It was crap everywhere in the 1800’s.Irish persecution complex,as shown above in the Stuart kings example is both historically incorrect,and paranoid.Mind you; with the collapse of the tigger economy…..

    DD; look on the bright side,each time you attend the passing (mass I assume)for a spud, you move a tiny bit further up the evolutionary scale. 😀

    Premier Icon MrSmith
    Free Member

    scotland for the scots, then let it all kick off amongst themselves and let the UN sort it out and maybe a bit of humanitarian aid to deal with the health problems.
    refugees should be held in camps at the border until deemed suitable for entry to England.

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    Just because you are paranoid and think everyone is out to get you, doesn’t mean they aren’t 🙂

    Premier Icon grantus
    Free Member

    Celtic – never defeated, always cheated since 1888

    Rangers – defenders of the crown – rule britannia

    Lol

    **** the lot of them

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    Anyway, enough of this.It is Friday, I have a mere 40 higher papers left to mark for the kids at Centreparcs fund,and I am going to gaze/annoy the shop staff to finish my cyclescheme Cotic X this afternoon,in a lovely orange colour. 🙄

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    Group hug everyone?

    That makes everything better

    Premier Icon mansonsoul
    Free Member

    Hurrah, group hugs!

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