spot on Gary M!

I do think its a tad sad you never see a Scotland flag at an old firm game. Either the Irish flag or the Union Flag .

However work is on going to reduce it – from the banning of sectarian activity and songs to the education of the youth.

If only there was a way to increase this education of the youth…

As for schooling question. First and foremost i’d prefer state funded schooling tosecular. It doesn’t matter what religion it is, but religion should kept as far away from the classroom as possible, unless that classroom be religious education – and that should be for comparative religious education not some reverend, priest or iman preaching.

In Scotland there does seem to be support for all schools to be non denominational (80% of the population at large and 59% amongst catholics). But it is still seen a political hot potato and the only party in the Scottish parliament who would supports the change is the Greens.

The shared campus schools are seen the compromise ‘solution’- 2 different schools sharing the one building and classrooms. But the non-denominational pupils and teachers and catholic pupils and teachers have seperate entrances, seperate toilets and seperate dining halls. Maybe ok for South Africa in the 1980s or Alabama in the 1960s but pretty poor show in these supposedly more enlightened times.

that doesn’t happen, you’re making stuff up, catholic schools work on catchment area the same as non dom, if you live in the catchment area you can get in..

No your talking bollocks. Catchment area is only one of the criteria used in pupil placement. For catholic schools, religion is another one! If the school is at capacity (which ‘very good’ and ‘popular’ schools are likely to be) then this becomes an issue. Indeed it is such that if you live across the road from a catholic school but aren’t catholic they will bus you 2 miles to your school whilst bussing a catholic pupil into the school across the road from you. If the school has plenty of space its a non issue – but of course the best schools don’t stay empty for long! Here’s a story google threw up: http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/catholic-school-system-taken-to-court-parents-challenge-right-to-deny-son-a-place-1.192355 but I believe you’ll find others if you look hard enough…

It is disappearing compared to how it used to be. There is no doubt about that. I grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and saw it.

I was there too – I don’t think its that much better – perhaps you’ve been over in Leith for too long! If you really think its sorted take a walk through Larkhall on and old firm day wearing something green (not even a celtic strip)…

As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.

you could probably lump a lot of those together – but they are also not really “Scottish” problems they are UK/developed world problems. In contrast sectarianism is very much a Scottish issue. My list would probably look something like this, in no particular order:

– Lack of aspiration
– Poverty
– Poor health
– Sectarianism
– Dependence/entitlement culture

sounds more like a catchment area issue to me..number 37 on the waiting list. tbh the opposite would probably be true, say the kid went to catholic primary and then wants to go to the non denom school that is bursting at the seems, i’d think they’d get put on a waiting list while the catchment schools are given priority, are they discriminated, imo no. what was the outcome of the case?

I don’t remember sectarianism being a problem in Glasgow in the 70’s & 80’s. I grew up in a council estate, went to a catholic school and I don’t remember ant violence around religion. Yes the neds were shouting about their various terrorist groups and bobby sands was the heronof the day but it was just something for neds go belong too. If it’s wasn’t a catholic/protestant divide it would be something else.

In my opinion there are two sorts of “sectarianism” in Scotland; there’s the obvious stuff like last night, or the city centre fights between the neds. That’s not really sectarianism, that’s just an outlet for the extremely poor, unhealthy, and forgotten lowest-class population of West/Central Scotland to take out their agression, frustration and stupidity on.

To me, of more concern is the just-under-the-surface vein that still runs through a large proportion of the community. Like someone above said, I have intelligent, level-headed friends who are extremely biggoted on this issue, and can’t seem to move beyond it. Similarly I have witnessed completely inappropriate comments at work about the recruitment/redundancy/management of colleagues as a result of them being “Tims”. This is passed off at un-PC humour when challenged, but with a minority the undercurrent is always there.

Regarding Lennon; he rubs people up the wrong way with his aggressive and confrontational attitude. I’m not sure retiring five years early from playing for his national side, GBH, bullets-in-the-post, parcel bombs, death threats, or 24hour security and panic buttons in his home where he lives with his children are reasonable sanctions for this.

Jeebus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13378140

It is disappearing compared to how it used to be

yup, that’s why the Subway in Larkhall isn’t green like the rest of them

Tell me that subway thing is a joke, please!!!

Where ever you go they are green, does the Green party have a different name as well?

No joke.

clicky

Just to andd a little fuel to the debate. My Mrs Steveoath and some of her colleagues have worked the nightshift A&E at the Southern General Hospital in Glasgow after old firm games and there are always more horrible attacks if Rangers lose. Make of that what you will…

Me – I support Morton. Crap 1st division football is the new black!

Crap 1st division football is the new black!

As an Arab, I’d have to say what an awesome performance that was by the Tinkies (Dundee) after the 25 point deduction, whatever the circumstances and the rights and wrongs.

Bigbutslimmer,shut it,fed up hearing (until last week) about the real 1st Div champions.

.. but they aren’t. 44 points, add in the 25 and you get 69, which is 1 less than Dunfermline = Dunfermline as undisputed champions, well done Jimmy Mac. And that’s not factoring in the run which they probably wouldn’t have done without the kicking the SFL gave them.
And without asking “how many points would you have had if you not bought players you couldn’t afford, so putting yourselves in that position in the first place, eh, sorry, you’ll need to speak up a bit there?”

As others have said, it’s very much a problem focused around the West of Scotland. I grew up in Aberdeen and only discovered a few years ago that the wee lady who lived next door to us and used to babysit was a Catholic – it just wasn’t something that was considered worthy of note. In comparison, I remember how bizarre I found the whole thing when I moved down to Glasgow, especially the bizarrely revisionist history that is used to sustain both sides of the argument.

I’m not sure that the existence of Catholic schools is at the root of the problem per se, as in my experience as a youth worker down here, the ahistorical paranoia that is present in some of the young people we work with is perpetuated by parents and extended family, rather than in school. Our local secondary school, which accommodates most of the young people in the area, is Catholic, but they treat sectarianism in the same way as racism or homophobia in terms of the seriousness with which they respond to it.

I also think the clubs themselves have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards sectarianism, in that they are both involved in programmes to combat it, yet neither side seem very willing to condemn sectarian violence in particularly strong terms – statements about it are usually fairly cagey.

In comparison, I remember how bizarre I found the whole thing when I moved down to Glasgow,

same here. I moved to Glasgow 10 or so years ago, I remember there was a couple of things you’d get asked in ‘polite’ conversation in the pub. The first was normally ‘Do you work?’ meaning what do you do with your time, odd to me in itself, the second would be ‘what team do you support?’ with direct religious connotations.

some areas are worse than others.

As an Aberdeen supporter Im sick of the pair of the Bigot bros , BOTH are as bad as each other . I’ve worked with loads of Celtic and Rangers fans and as usual 95 % of them are fine and are oin the whole 90 minute bigots. It’s the other 5% that you need to worry about the kind that ruin rememberance day minute silences and on the other side send Bullets to current Celtic figureheads. Personally I dont care what they sing to each other as you will find pretty unsavoury songs directed at Man U and Liverpool fans regarding Munich , Heysel etc which are IMO way more out of order. The thing I hate about the old firm is the petty bickering that goes on in the media about what the other side has sung , done or decisions made for or against them . If one half wants to be Irish and the other English let them take there shite elsewhere and let the other teams get on with It.
On the subject of Hibs and Hearts they both have the sectarian elements but to be honest are so diluted and In the minority Its not worth even mentioning.

“Stand Free”.

seosamh77 – Member

As a DUFC fan,I am interested in you opinion on how singing republican songs in support of another country,and disturbing the minutes silence wherever you go(including Ibrox this year,cough,cough)does anything to suggest that you WANT to belong,as you put it.I remember the Celtic fans regailing us with the refrain of “Argentina” in the early 80’s…I don’t think they were referring to the quality of the football on offer.Likewise the fields of athenry is a little bit more than a quaint little folk ballad,is it not?
Outsiders like myself who experience the songs both sides of the old firm sing don’t really think either of you should be complaining about the other.”Your problems” as you call them before explaining exactly what Rangers problems are,are much more real than a media construct designed by a pro Rangers media bias.I think both your team and Rangers fuel each other.Don’t get me wrong,if the respective fans of each team did not have each other to hate,it would be something else,scheme,gang etc,so the problem is not going away,although it has lessened (shipyards all closed)

I missed this earlier, couple of things, rangers broke their own minutes silence earlier last year. The ibrox disaster one was observed by both sets this year, and the before that for gerry neef was actually broken by a rangers fan shouting out FTP.

And what makes the fields more than a folk ballad? jebus i can understand peoples issues with the IRA songs but the fields of athenry? baffling. Also, you may view Ireland as a foreign country, i don’t, loads of people in glasgow don’t.. nothing wrong with that, similar to someone born in glasgow may not view pakistan or india as a foriegn country, it’s in their cultural makeup and nothing wrong with it..

Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?

sounds more like a catchment area issue to me..number 37 on the waiting list.

And yet if he had been catholic, especially if he had been newly moved to the area or if he has gone to the catholic primary he would have got a place. West Lothian Council’s Pupil Placement Guidance is quite clear “In the case of a RC school where there are more applications from those living within the catchment area than places priority will be given to those pupils who have been baptised in the RC Church.”

tbh the opposite would probably be true, say the kid went to catholic primary and then wants to go to the non denom school that is bursting at the seems,

you are right, that problem does occur too (and I’ve little sympathy for parents who change their religious association to suit their school needs!). You’ll be pleased to hear that those parents also take legal action in West Lothian!

what was the outcome of the case?

I’m not sure on that specific case. I know that sometimes when it has been “the otherway round” that the Council have been forced to find space – but i’m not sure if that is the Court that has forced it or if the council has backed down before it gets that far. However as I understand it whilst “Faith” schools are excluded from discrimination legislation, non-denominational schools are not (so a Catholic applying to a non-denom school has more rights than an aetheist applying to a Catholic school).

Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?

yes and no.. is the simple answer to that, you’ll find alot less in the older generation imo, me personally, I don’t bother about international fitba beyond the world cup and the euro champs, so it’s a bit of a non issue! 😀

poly, i doubt we’ll ever agree on it, so agree to disagree?

😯 I think poly’s comments are quite compelling…..
to quote someone earlier in the thread…
wake yourself up !

Personally, I simply have no time for the bigotry and sectarian issues around footie and as a result, I’ve totally lost interest in football and I dont particularly like working at it. Grown men acting like weans and bleating about the other side.

There is no doubt that some areas are worse than others, and working in Saltcoats, I’d say that the general north Ayrshire area is one of the worst for people asking the “what team do you support” in the first few lines of a conversation.

My reply line is “I don’t support football, I support Morton”. 🙂

I think visually, the biggest local issue is the marches. I just think they are an entrenchment of long gone history and don’t serve for much in modern times. The attitudes and change in atmosphere that they create is terrible.

And what makes the fields more than a folk ballad? jebus i can understand peoples issues with the IRA songs but the fields of athenry? baffling

because it is often sung with pro ira chants. I see once again you are trying to paint Celtic fan as whiter than white by criticising the actions of Rangers fans. Quite frankly your arguments are at about the same level as a petulant child who can only see the faults of others.

Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?

I’m sure plenty do, but the tartan army won’t tolerate any old firm shite at Scotland matches – they take pride in their support of Scotland. So their’s no visible sectarian element associated with the national side.

How they maintain this good order is a mystery of the modern world – assembling a few thousand young, male, ginger booze monsters in one place is usually a recipe for catastrophe. But they manage to pull it off with great aplomb.

The Ibrox disaster one was not observed,according to two people I work with,one from each colour of Glasgow (NOT Clyde AND QP.) Your little ditty about the free birds is a quaint folk song,just like Rangers singing about decorative and very old pieces of silk,or the British national anthem whenever they play anybody they view as Catholic,eg Dundee Hibs. Also,if you do not view/want NI as a seperate country to the UK,you are in a very small minority at Parkhead 😀
In 2009 during the mins silence they stood outside Falkirk’s ground and sang a song about Bloody Sunday,something the fans spokesman refused to (“Condemn or Condone,but understood”)during the silence.Before entering the ground.

PSA PSA PSA PSA PSA

I received this email earlier – possibly of interest to some of you. Note: free, but ticketed event. The eventbrite website is currently down (Thursday 19:30) so don’t know how that all works. Cheers, Kit.

—————————————————————————-

The Scottish-Irish Group
The Scottish Centre for Diaspora Studies
School of History, Classics and Archaeology
University of Edinburgh

presents

An Evening of Debate and Discussion on

SECTARIANISM IN SCOTLAND: MYTH or REALITY?

Monday 23 May 2011 at 6.00pm
University of Edinburgh

The major recent controversy over the perceived issue of sectarian problems in Scotland has stimulated much national soul-searching, media comment, both at home and abroad, and political reactions. But the voice of most of those in the universities who study this problem from an academic perspective has been little heard. This event will bring together a number of scholars from the University of Edinburgh with different views on this complex subject in an evening discussion to be chaired by the distinguished journalist and commentator, Joyce McMillan.

The members of the panel are:

Professor Thomas M Devine http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/academic/tdevine/ , Sir William Fraser Professor of Scottish History and Palaeography and

Director of the Scottish Centre of Diaspora Studies

Mr Owen Dudley Edwards http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/odudley-edwards/ , Honorary Fellow, School of History, Classics and Archaeology

Dr John Kelly http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php , Lecturer in Sport and Recreation Business Management, School of Education

Dr Michael Rosie http://www.sps.ed.ac.uk/staff/sociology/rosie_michael , Senior Lecturer in Sociology, School of Social and Political Science

In Part One the panel will be asked to address a series of key questions on this topic which are set out below. In Part Two a question and answer session will follow involving both audience and panellists.

* What is sectarianism?

* Scotland is the only jurisdiction where Irish Catholic and Protestants settled throughout the world which maintains an anti-sectarian policy at governmental level in 2011. Why?

* Is this issue essentially about football rivalry in the West of Scotland?

* ‘ Not sectarianism but blatant anti-Catholicism’ (The Cardinal Archbishop of Edinburgh). The response of the panel?

* ‘ The Catholic [educational] system is the greatest example of institutional racism in the land … and should be abolished forthwith’ (Letter to The Scotsman, December, 2006). The response of the panel?

This is a free, but ticketed, event.

Given the current high-profile of this topic, demand for places is likely to be high. Early application is therefore strongly recommended in order to avoid disappointment.

Please book your place in advance at:

http://scottishcentrediasporastudiessectariainism.eventbrite.com/

The venue will be confirmed once demand has been assessed.

Details will be emailed to you on the email address given when registering.

I think poly’s comments are quite compelling…..
to quote someone earlier in the thread…
wake yourself up

I actually find the argument that catholic secondary schools are pointless as the religious education is barely evident, optional and most choose people not to partake in it by 2nd year far more compelling, rather than bringing up a few cases of people not getting in and claiming discrimination.

I agree with faith based primary’s however, despite being non religious myself..

Tam Devine is the man,that will be a cracking lecture;If a bit far away.

Personally I think that religion should be removed from schools and left at home. That way, education can be based on the basic educations of reading writing maths ect, and any knowledge and understanding of religion or belief left to the parents to teach.

I’m thinking it was a perfect storm of a Hearts fan suddenly waking up to the realisation that his club’s a disaster, and Neil Lennon being very punchable.

because it is often sung with pro ira chants. I see once again you are trying to paint Celtic fan as whiter than white by criticising the actions of Rangers fans. Quite frankly your arguments are at about the same level as a petulant child who can only see the faults of others.

Who’s painting celtic fans whiter than white? Not me anyhow, I’ve got myself into fights with celtic fans in the past after pulling them up over their behaviour. I’m well aware of our deficiencies as a support, more so than yourself i’d imagine.

What i am saying though is that is that the equal blame people try to give out is wrong.

Btw where have i denied anything about IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.

Songs take on different meanings depending on who’s singing them.

Why the **** I (as a Munster fan) have to sing the dirge about some fella from Galway escapes me.

Taking it on as a sporting anthem goes back (IIRC) to the World Cup in 1990. I think it had been a chart hit (no laughing at the back) around then in Ireland after being recorded by some popular folk singers. Lots of other Irish teams have taken it on (Or those with strong connections to Ireland). I believe it made it to the sub-continent this year for the Cricket World Cup.

When sung by Celtic fans, it is often punctuated by pro-IRA chants (between the lyrics). We all know that much. I’m not saying that every Celtic fan does it. But it’s sullied now in the eyes of Rangers fans and anybody that can’t be arsed with the bigotry.

I absolutely hate it. So. Much.

Rangers fans are far worse behaved than Celtic fans when travelling away from home. This is also a fact.

Garry_Lager –
How they maintain this good order is a mystery of the modern world – assembling a few thousand young, male, ginger booze monsters in one place is usually a recipe for catastrophe. But they manage to pull it off with great aplomb.

Pride in their reputation and self policing. anyone gets out of order the other fans will point out the error of their ways.

Who’s painting celtic fans whiter than white? Not me anyhow,

Well I’ll admit that you’re not doing a very good job of it. It was the fact that in response to criticism about both sides of the old firm your first response was to say how dreadful Rangers fans are rather than address the deficiencies of Celtic fans

What i am saying though is that is that the equal blame people try to give out is wrong.

There’s that childish argument again.

Btw where have i denied anything about IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.

Astonishing, simply astonishing. And not in a good way.