This is on 28th Oct in Perth

Scottish Mountain bike conference

Can as many of you as possible go along, this event needs Mountain bikers to attend so we can have a say in the future of Mountain biking in Scotland.

If you can make please do.. and let everyone who you know that bikes and doesnt STW know too.

If we do not I have no doubt that the BC/SCU and the FC Scotland will have many people there making decsions on Mountain biking that many actual MTBers will not agree with.

Thanks

Can the mods please make this a sticky until the event.
Thanks

I know many of you are do not live in Scotland,

but those that do and those that visit on a regular basis this could have far reaching effects on where we will be able to ride and what trails will be available to ride on.

It’s a shame it’s on a school day, might have gone otherwise.

The conference cost is £45 inc VAT.

I mean to be rude here… but what are you getting for this £45? Seems to me that the conferance is now being run for profit by someone… which is no surprise really!

I went to the first one of these conferences hoping to put something back into the sport and maybe get something out of it. As a regular member of the mountain biking public who really just wants places to ride I was sorely dissapointed. The jargon filled “paper” that came out it was hardly fit for wiping and flushing.

For the most part it was full of people with a vested interest in making a living out of mountain biking trying to score points and get noticed rather than pulling together for the interest of the sport.

Grass roots out on the trails is where the action is… not w@nking for coins at a conferance.

*steps down off soapbox*

lol @ £45, either have a free community discussion conference or have a paid for thing with workshops etc. in it (that some people might derive value from) that doesn’t also give people a voice in the direction of the sport. Don’t combine them and then try and get people to pay £45 under the shoddy premise of having a say in the future of MTBing in Scotland

Thats actually dirt cheap for a conference, though its probably enough for non-institutional stakeholders, ie joe blogs riders, to be put off attending.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the outcomes of such a conference anyway, it wouldn’t have any effect on everyday riders really, more for stakeholders in the industry. You aren’t going to wake up one day and not be allowed to ride your bike or something, its more about long term developments such as trail centres (yawn) and racing I suspect. Anyway conferences are just hot air and business card swapping, I doubt there will be many perceivable useful outputs.

messiah said +1

I saw the latest BS email land in my inbox earlier this week saying that they wanted to get rider input blah blah blah. Like Messiah, I was there back in 2007 (it cost nothing then IIRC) but i’m afraid its the same old pish thats being trotted out again and again. These quango love-ins are just a merry-go-round of studies and reports and projects and fork all actually happens. We had the trail centre boom back in the early part of the last decade and since 2006 nothing has fundamentally changed or been significantly improved. They’ve had almost 3 years since the last conference to come up with something and as Messiah pointed out it was a marketeers glossy w*nk mag, full of jargon and speak about MTB as a “product” but bugger all about how this would actually be delivered, or more importantly what and where they would deliver it.

I reckon hundres of thousands have been spent to date on studies showing them what to do and where (google “an ambition towards forest cycling and Mountain Biking” if you can be bothered) and all of this data was junked for the last conference when they decided they were going to set out a “framework”. All that was going to do was suggest how they would structure development, it still wasn’t actually going to do anything! Here we are almost 7 years after TRC did a shed load of work at the expense of the public purse and lo and behold we’re not even at the point where we can do anything with the data. Its long out of date anyway so once (if) anything is actually decided we’ll need a new study etc etc – it just keeps on trucking….

Set this against the FC’s desire to reverse out of any new trail development anywhere on the forest estate (OGB137?)and you have the makings of public sector hot-potato. everyone wants to talk about it but nobody will to hold on to it.

Whatever these folks say about wanting to engage people is all balls – this kind of thing is arranged behind closed doors long before Joe public ever gets a say in it. I mean, what would they do if overwhelming public support for something got in the way of their carefully crafted plans that were set in stone years ago? We can’t have the public knowing whats better for them than the people we put there to look after it, can we?

Sorry, I’m a cynic when it comes to this crap and i admire Soulrider for wanting to get involved, but if you think you’ll change anything for your £45 quid then prepare to be disappointed.

but those that do and those that visit on a regular basis this could have far reaching effects on where we will be able to ride and what trails will be available to ride on.

Struggling to see how such a conference could be important to the individual rider? Can you give an example of ‘far reaching effects’ that could arise from this meeting? You’re making it sound like the Scottish land access rights are emperiled or something.

Hmmm.

So we need a conference to recognise that: –

Trail centres cost money to build and maintain.

People like riding their bikes.

FC don’t want to build new trails on their estate as a result of cost pressures and risk aversion.

Times are tough and in the current climate, attracting public sector funding into mountain biking is even harder than before.

Ok, that’s the consultancy work finished. Who should I bill for it?

I really struggle to see the point of this conference. We’re no further forward than we were 3 years ago and I have to echo the sentiments of David and Messiah.

Interesting that the key note speaker isn’t someone reknowned for their mountain biking achievements. This isn’t meant to belittle Mark as he deserves his plaudits but who made the booking?

There are those people who got on with things and who drove the development of mountain biking in Scotland and there are the hangers on who’ve come late to the party whose motivations I would have to question. I would welcome someone standing up and stating what progress has been made in the past three years in developing mountain biking in Scotland. Answers on a very small postcard please!

Just adding to the above, looking at the programme, what are the outputs which we can expect from the conference? If the ultimate aim is to create demand leading to economic, social and health benefits, who and how will this be driven forward? All I’m seeing from the programme is a lot of fart and nae sh*te, to coin a phrase. 😯 I suspect there will be a lot of chat but no real progress three years from now.

Slightly at a tangent, if one wants to see how a sport succeeds despite the efforts of a governing body rather than because of it, take a look at where the UK is successful in mountain biking. How much money actually goes into supporting DH talent as opposed to the money spent by British Cycling on track and XC racing? There is a genuine lack of fairness which needs to be addressed. Our Downhillers succeed in spite of national bodies, not because of them and frankly that annoys the hell out of me. Track cycling has been a phenomenal success story because the funding and support has come but looking at XC mountain biking, we’re nowhere. Just because a sport is an Olympic event should not be the prime consideration for funding. If the conference wants to make a difference, they should have a strategy and plan created to ensure that Fort William holds onto the DH round of the World Cup because once it goes, I very much doubt that it will ever return. Beyond that, they have to think about what other events they can attract to build on Fort William’s success.

Sanny/ Davidrussell, I won’t be going, nowt to do with me……….

Saying this half seriously, but perhaps we should consider organising a Critical Mass style event in Perth for the 28th October, to make the point that there’s very little connection between what will be going on at the conference and ‘grass roots’ mountain biking.

Although I didn’t participate in the previous meetings, I’ve been at enough similar conferences and consultations to do with youth work to share Sanny’s viewpoint that they are a very elaborate way of doing nothing. I’d rather put a day of my life into taking a group of young people out on their bikes than on a conference TBH.

w@nking for coins

Hahahahahaha.

Thank Charlie Brooker for that one 🙂

@aviemoron were you at the last one? One is certainly enough unless you have a short memory or like being surrounded by green fleece.

I am glad that this discuccion has finally woken up.
I will be honest, I hadnt realised that it was going to cost £45 I should have really looked at all the details.
I was there at the last one and it was interesting, however what has been said above there wasnt a lot that seemed to come out of the whole thing.

From what I understand chatting to a few people the FC are looking to use this as a way to reduce their involvement in MTBing whereever possible.

They are currently looking for other partners to take on the care and maintenance of the trails, in addition to all the liability, even though it is their land.

I do like ditch jockey’s critical mass idea- I wonder how that would go down with the establishments.

I was always somewhat skeptical of these conferences, but having attended the IMBA UK conference last month, I can see the benefit of them.

The big issue is mountainbiking is a very fragmented sport, with various organisations/groups with an interest in it, but there is no organisation who’s sole interest is mountainbiking.
At the IMBA conference, I think it was the Scottish Enterprise speaker who listed about 15 fairly major individual organisations with an interest in mountainbiking in scotland alone, and although some of them work with each other, none have mountainbiking as a core item in their remit.

These conferences give an oportunity for these organisations to meet up, hear some speakers talk about some of the big issues and related subjects, then discuss various topics, where ideas can be exchanged/built upon, contacts made, and hopefully everybody leaves having learnt something and have a better idea of what direction the sport is going.

However, I would tend to agree with ditch_jockey, in that very little will probably be acheived on the day, but it should hopefully set in motion some changes for the future.

Good words mc

@ others, I would suggest that rather than putting your energies into a critical mass style stunt, you attend the event and listen and learn, and find out who you need to speak to about your concerns, and voice your concerns in the q&a sessions at the end of the talks in a positive, constructive direct manner. Making a negative fuss is just a waste of time when dealing with this kind of thing, direct your energies into trying to make a difference in a positive way, by speaking during the conference, meeting those involved, showing support/concern by letters from your club, etc, etc

@bigjim

Have you actually been to one of these events? Your remarks about getting letters of support from bike clubs etc dont suggest so. Its going to take a hell of a lot more than waving a few letters and asking pointed questions to change anything.

I have been involved in trying to make a difference btw.

+1 for messiah and Sanny.

Saw the notice, but at £45 plus your transport and on a weekday they will get zero “ordinary” riders – do they even live in the real world thinking they will?

I saw the output from the last event earlier in the year. It was all workshops and the only outcome was to agree on what “pods” should be organised, what they should focus on and how they should publicise themselves. 100% f. all to do with actually achieving something

This event on the 28th is also all about workshops and getting input. So when are they going to get away from input and actually do something that any of us actually notice

I lead an MTB sub group of a local organisation trying to promote cycling in the local area. The group got no specific invite, and no offer of e.g. one free place to encourage representatives from local groups to attend.

Am totally for the initiative of trying to pull things together, but totally against what seems to be yet another talk shop

From the conference blurb, they’re not actually touting it at individual punters anyway, and although I could go along as a ‘community group’, I’m not going to take a day off my work and pay £45 for the privilege of having someone trot out a load of cliches about how they can make me “feel empowered” as the spiel puts it.

Setting the blurb about community groups in the context of a reminder of the economic constraints we’re all facing is a pretty strong indication that buying into it will put you in the realm of getting piecemeal grants which require massive amounts of reporting back (think postcode level analysis of participants and so on) which allows reports to be compiled demonstrating how successful the whole thing has been.

Meanwhile more kids get fatter…

+1 for CaptainMainwaring

I looked at the website and mailed the organiser. IMO it didn’t look like they had a comprehensive list of stake holders attending. All the major governments bodies, but few NGO’s and nothing specific from the grass roots

Ah good…yet another chance to rehash the same discussions that have been had for the last 7 years (christ that long since CV kicked off!)…and this time they are charging for it…clearly the Public Service has taken it on the chin and decided to help reduce the overall cost of holding these ‘events’ – it’s a box-ticking exercise so that those in control (primarily FC) can calim to have involved the public and listened to their input…reality dictates they hold it at the least convenient time and charging for it ensures the ‘ordinary’ biker won’t be in attendance. You will get a lot of paper shufflers in a room agreeing that something should be done but not actually deciding what to do or who (whom?) should do it or by when.

The FC don’t want to walk away from MTBing…they just want to be seen as not controlling it anymore…so they will allow this group to sit and ‘drive’ this forward but actually they will be pulling all the strings to make sure they are in control.

As much as I hate to admit it, this is a pure stitch-up and anyone who thinks any good and actual result can be achieved from this is truly mistaken…it’s being done so that the power-holders can say they have engaged with the people (and that includes the councils and all the other paper-shufflers that wouldn’t necessarily be the ‘ordinary’ biker).

It’s shamefully embarrassing to think the sport has gone this far and descended so low…there are so many people and groups doing good but those in power don’t want them as it isn’t their ball so they decide on these huge events and discussions so they can appear to be doing something.

No action plan or timescales will come out of this but I suspect someone is going to suggest a new survey and research to determine what is actually needed…

Here we go again…

It’s just window dressing. The sad reality is that Joe Public is totally disenfranchised from this charade. Anyone thinking they can go to Perth and make a meaningful contribution is living in lala land. If you really value the publics opinion then you run it when they can attend and you charge (or rather don’t charge)appropriately.

Some of the big players cannae even run themselves far less be entrusted to ‘developing mountain biking in scotland’ (or whatever the most recently rebranded iteration is titled)

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Tourism-quango-boss-gets-m.6548453.jp

http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/daily-mail-london-england-the/mi_8002/is_2010_August_19/quango-fat-cat-pounds-sterling115000/ai_n55108948/

>This event on the 28th is also all about workshops and getting input. So when are they going to get away from input and actually do something that any of us actually notice<

Exactly – smoke and mirrors. They’ve spent 3 years and god knows how much cash pulling their Quangowagons round in a nice big cosy circle.

Lots of feathers ruffled here!

<devils advocate>
What would you do instead of running this conference then?
</devils advocate>

I can’t quite understand what needs ‘developing’, or indeed, if the idea of ‘development’ on offer here is really a positive thing for mountain biking.

‘Development’ and ‘progress’ are such powerful words in our society, but too often the questions “what are we developing for, what is ‘progress’?” are simply not asked. Mountain biking in Scotland does not, in my mind, need ‘developing’. A conception of mountain biking as this club based racing sport has already damaged mountain biking, and cycling as a whole, to such an extreme degree that any moves by BC and the like are highly suspect in my view. BC, by promoting cycling as a racing sport has destroyed any chance of bicycles being part of the lives of the majority of ordinary people in this country.

What’s wrong with a Scottish mountain bike scene with no organisations, no trail centres or multi million pound venues, with no regulation or red tape, no races? What’s wrong with small individual scale friendship groups zipping around utilising the wonderful access rights we have in Scotland?

To expand this a little bit.
One of the things that Graeme McLean has been doing is helping to set up local clusters to get more folk involved in identifying what improvements need to be made, and working out how to translate that into something tangible which can be progressed using the time and money available. These sound like a good idea to me – get folk involved in local priorities.

Of course, there will always be those who want FC to turn all Scotland’s forests into Glentresses, which they can ride for free whenever they choose, but back in the real world, that aint going to happen.

Maybe mountain biking in Scotland just doesn’t need any development activity?

From a government perspective, I suspect that there’s some level of awareness that getting people, especially kids, back out on their bikes would be a good thing for the nation’s health. I’d imagine that the potential for having lots of middle-aged Audi driving mountain bikers coming to Scotland to spend their dosh in shops, hotels and so on would also be seen as a good thing.

The “Chris Hoy” effect would also come into play here – his success would probably be a bigger factor in getting kids interested in track cycling than any number of new velodromes, although of course, once their interested, you need velodromes for that interest to translate into reality.

The difficulty with conferences like these are that they tend not to inspire ‘blue sky thinking’ as they’re usually operating within a framework of predetermined outputs “healthier scotland”, “safer scotland” etc etc. Any ideas have to be able to be translated back into the vocabulary of Holyrood, otherwise you are, in effect, speaking a foreign language to them. My experience has been that this ‘Holyrood-ese’ has a very powerful shaping effect and constrains creative thinking in a very unhelpful fashion. Most of the bureaucrats who hold the power at these events seem unaware, or unconcerned, that their vocabulary shapes social policy making in this way.

geoffj, as I understand it these “clusters” are not involving local groups but are activity focused, and consist of people who go along to the meetings.

Graeme has been proactive about reaching out to local groups, in our experience, but there is no vehicle for us to be part of or contribute to these clusters.

I agree that that MTBing in Scotland is very fragmented, needs pulling together and some real actions being seen to happen but unfortunately currently seems to be too much beaurocracy and navel gazing.

captain – why can’t you get involved with the cluster? I may be wrong, but I thought that anyone could get involved if they wanted to. The active focussing must come from within the cluster participants. If you aren’t participating, then you can’t help decide what the focus should be?

What do you mean when you say there is no vehicle for us to be part of or contribute to these clusters ?

I’m not trying to be devil’s advocate here, I’m just trying to understand what is missing to stop you getting involved?

clusterf*ck ?? It still sounds like a committee to me 🙂

geoffj, the reason why I don’t get involved is the same as others from the comments above. The whole thing seems to be a strategic talkfest run by people who are paid to be involved. Look at the output from the last meeting.

To quote from the website – In 2007 the key agencies involved in mountain biking recognised that, whilst there was many success stories, the activity would benefit from a strategic approach to future development.. They are now billing the October conference as the first Scottish MTB conference, so what was the one earlier in the year, and what have they been doing since 2007?

I would get involved if I could see something specific happening. e.g if someone said they were trying to develop central resource for mapping, publishing and waymarking trails in the region and could local people come along to an area meeting on a Saturday morning – I would go.

I take your point about the output from the previous meeting, but I believe (perhaps naively) that the local clusters are supposed to be about getting things going in your area without the need for an expensive central administration.

Like I say, I am perhaps being naive, but if we don’t get involved with the local clusters and try to help with setting priorities and actually doing stuff on the ground e.g. trail clearing, producing maps/guides, or sticking a few signs up, we will never know.

I went to the last IMBA conference (and spoke / ran one of the workshops about volunteers – SingletrAction).

On the one hand “you’ve got to be in it to win it” is a good (if a bit sanctimonious 😉 ) expression. Alternatively, there comes a time when you have to step outside and act separately to the “establishment”. Both camps seem represented in the posts above 😎

I agree completely that there ought to be greater focus / co-ordination / establishment of an effective network of volunteers / MTB activists and grass roots stuff that’s actually happening. Any organisation needs a certain degree of red tape to exist but the key focus must be “doing stuff”. Unfortunately, “stuff to do” oftem involves long and drawn out planning / preparation / funding stagees to get to the point where people can get hands on and involved (and you often don’t need / many people aren’t interested in the lead up stages). Nevermind (English / Welsh issue) the campaign for proper access rights. Whilst it’s a key issue it’s dry, dull, laborious etc.

Whilst SingletrAction is affiliated to IMBA I am sorry to admit that I don’t really know what benefit that offers us (other than, possibly, the access to some reference info etc on thier website). I’ve said as much at the AGM. I really want a representative body for MTB in the UK (subdivided or whatever) however I don’t know how to do it and, with SingletrAction, I’ve got more than enough on.

I think that FC being so strong and almost all consuming in the MTB / trail development scene, as a phase, is passing. I think there are pro’s and con’s to this dominance but it does need to pass and be replaced with something more balanced across more landowners and users. I think this is going to be a real challenge for IMBA.

Sanny’s point about BC, their support for “that” cycling discipline, access to money and sport development is good. Bear in mind though that BC probably does “conferences” and all the other jazz (perceived by many as a waste of time and effort on this thread) well. Hence they also get into the money pots.

Pfffttt, I don’t know.

As a thought, if “we” wanted a representative body that supported grass roots trail development and that represented MTB what would it need to provide (to want people to join, stay members and participate)?

the issue is that most mtber’s aren’t aware of the grant fed sub economy of consultants and organisations that exist only due grant funding doing lots of thingsthat you will never be aware of.

getting paid to bid for money and run projects is their job and pays their mortgages

there has been (and probably continue to an extent) a lot of money sloshing around funding these characters.

that explains why the conference is on a weekday (they are of course riding their bikes at the weekend and too busy then :wink:)

Like I say, I am perhaps being naive, but if we don’t get involved with the local clusters and try to help with setting priorities and actually doing stuff on the ground e.g. trail clearing, producing maps/guides, or sticking a few signs up, we will never know.

yes, and you will help someone get some project outputs and assist their next funding bid

direct your energies into trying to make a difference in a positive way, by speaking during the conference, meeting those involved, showing support/concern by letters from your club, etc, etc

should be prefaced by ‘mis’ …

>the issue is that most mtber’s aren’t aware of the grant fed sub economy of consultants and organisations that exist only due grant funding doing lots of thingsthat you will never be aware of.<

Yup, and to some extent it’s self perpetuating with each side feeding off the other. Fearing something they might actually have to take responsibility for implementing the soft option is to dither and prevaricate – spin the process into something even more time consuming, beaurocratic and unwieldy. Which is exactly what’s happening here…

No accountability either – the Scottish Public Service Ombudsman ‘service’ has a more apalling record than the org’s they are supposed to police!

If you deliver on your promises in lala land you’ve just done yourself out of a job… to keep the gravy train running they have to organise more conferences… with more vague outcomes…

I thought I might be the only cynic…

yes, and you will help someone get some project outputs and assist their next funding bid

Or perhaps it might be useful to folk near me who like riding their bikes? 🙄

I suspect this isn’t even going to be in the language Holyrood talk…it’s going to boil down to the Tourism flag – no matter how much you dress it up, the suggested course of actions will centre round some tourism angle…health benefits may be mentioned but they will be far off 2nd priorities…Tourism apparently commands huge grants…health ‘schemes’ attract far less…