Scottish independence – hmm, a thought

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  • Scottish independence – hmm, a thought
  • hels
    Member

    My native country (NZ) can’t even agree on replacing our rather anachronistic flag, or if we should actually give names to the North and South islands, let alone what to call them.

    Mind you we have been a bit focused on the important things, like winning world cups.

    Good luck Scotland !

    mt
    Member

    don’t worry Binners the Auld Alliance factor will be there. France will have Scotland in the EU and then England will be surrounded. If Scotland then goes for the Euro (which all new EU members must sign up to) cross border smuggling will make millions. There will be an economic boom across the whole of the borders. Given the present situation in that region the two goverments should have done it years ago.

    So forgetting all that waffle, some Scots want independence cos they believe they will be individually wealthier, basically. That’s what it comes down to, is not it really, let’s face it.

    Rather a parochial and selfish attitude is not it?

    Let’s be honest; this is not really about ‘self-determination’ and ‘national identitiy’ and all that guff; it’s about money, in’t it?

    Funny how the separatists bang on about the Tories, yet are fundamentally no different….

    If Scotland wants to be an independent state then this vote should be on ideological grounds only. A vote yes for independence means that you will leave the Union regardless of the impact and be prepared to accept the benefits and costs equally. Some of these will only become apparent after the separation.

    Scotland appears to be wanting it both ways, “we want to leave but only if we are better off”. What happens when it appears when it would be better off in the Union, would Scotland want to rejoin?

    A lot of truth in that.

    Ransos – ditto!!

    ahwiles – so a tartan white elephant? And the Scots have so much common sense when it comes to managing money. Maybe that stops when they enter politics. Tis the same elsewhere, why not in Scotland?

    hels
    Member

    mt – I think that has been tried before many times, and failed.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    I think anyone can claim nationality if they’ve lived and worked in the uk for 5 years, so I’d imagine that would apply to scottish citizenship.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    Elfinsafety – Member
    So forgetting all that waffle, some Scots want independence cos they believe they will be individually wealthier, basically. That’s what it comes down to, is not it really, let’s face it.

    Personally i want independence as I’d like to see a proper democracy in scotland(i.e no tories for ever more.)

    Let’s be honest…… it’s about money, in’t it?

    …bang on about the Tories, yet are fundamentally no different….

    Anyone care to insert a recent price related Elfquote here? 😈

    πŸ˜‰

    druidh
    Member

    It’s the Schengen Agreement I have the most trouble with. Assuming (for the moment) that Scotland was seen as a new entrant to the EU, and that its participation in the Schengen Agreement was therefore mandatory, there would have to be some sort of passport control at the border. I wonder if some sort of exemption might be considered?

    seosamh77 – Member

    Personally i want independence as I’d like to see a proper democracy in scotland(i.e no tories for ever more.)

    Was the humour/irony intended here??

    ahwiles
    Member

    ahwiles – so a tartan white elephant?

    i don’t really know.

    but the polls always seem to suggest that independance is viewed as a ‘nice idea, but no thanks’.

    A-S seems to be waiting until the polls say ‘yeah, go on then’ – and that seems a little cheeky to me.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    teamhurtmore – Member
    seosamh77 – Member
    Personally i want independence as I’d like to see a proper democracy in scotland(i.e no tories for ever more.)

    Was the humour/irony intended here??nah, just disn’t read the end of the post beyond what i quoted! πŸ˜€

    mt
    Member

    Hi Hels,

    Which bit of my usless comments have been tried before?

    ulu-Eleven – Member

    and, I’ll ask politley, a final time and leave it there TJ

    Zulu-Eleven – Member

    I believe in a peoples right to self determination

    Nice weasel worded sideways dodge into not answering the question
    Not exactly au fait with the term “leave it there”, are we? Could you be a dear boy and post up your definition as it clearly isn’t “not say any more on the subject” which I think you’ll find is most people’s.

    hels
    Member

    C’mon British people, you have done this before…

    How about re-enacting the partition of India and Pakistan ? Those for, head up to the Highlands. Those against, stay down south of Perth.

    Oh…

    (mt – forming an alliance with the French)

    Have we decided who’s a jock yet? Are my kids Scottish ‘cos their mums a thistle stamper, we live in England? I’ve done my part as a good Englishman and have bred with the dirty animals, if you lot had of all done the same we wouldn’t need this debate just like Longshanks reckoned!

    hels
    Member

    Actually I’m starting to like this partition idea. I can think of some football supporters in the west who might be keen too.

    there would have to be some sort of passport control at the border.

    Would that be the same as the passport control at Dublin, where I rode off the ferry on a motorbike, wearing a tinted helmet and no-one asked to see my passport or open my visor?
    or here (looking in the north from Eire) (the border is where the road surface changes)
    ..or what about the Austrian-Lichtenstein border?

    druidh
    Member

    BBSB – Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area. Both Austria and Lichtenstein are. It’s the crossing in and out that’s the issue.

    Personally i want independence as I’d like to see a proper democracy in scotland(i.e no tories for ever more.)

    πŸ˜†

    Very good.

    Anyone care to insert a recent price related Elfquote here?

    Why don’t you then, Flashy?

    Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area.

    So if UK is not a member and Scotland is part of the UK, therefore not a member, why should that change?

    druidh
    Member

    BigButSlimmerBloke – Member
    > Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area.

    So if UK is not a member and Scotland is part of the UK, therefore not a member, why should that change?It depends on whether or not an independent Scotland would be deemed to be a new entrant to the EU. All new entrants are obliged to join the Schengen area.

    The thing that I find interesting about this thread, and the previous one, are the fascinating insights you get into the apparent psychology of “being English” that many of the posters display. it seems to be characterised by a corrosive negativity that delights in petty points scoring and the prospect of being able to revel in the failure of others.

    Gaining independence would only be the start of an extended period of ‘nation building’ – always an activity that carries risks. If the population of Scotland votes for independence, it would need to be with the awareness that taking ownership of our own destiny in this way means accepting the responsibility to roll up our sleeves and get stuck in. At certain points in our history, we’ve done this magnificently, but historic achievement is no guarantee of repeating it in our current circumstances.

    Someone asked if it was all about being better off financially – all I can say is that’s not what motivates me. I fully expect that times will be harder if we become independent. What compels me is the desire for self-determination:
    “It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”

    It depends

    it does, so I’ll worry about it when/if the time comes. Without any form of precedent, there’s enough things to be getting one’s knickers in a twist about without inveting them

    Premier Icon duckman
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    Zulu-Eleven – Member
    Blimey – even the New statesman agrees with me

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

    He is almost as selective as you.

    mt
    Member

    Hels,
    I thought you meant the smuggling, that just goes to show my mind set.
    The alliance with France may not have worked (some would say it did but not for the Scots of the time) but like many of the things that cause a seperatist/independance movement history is the driver, how many people look at those historical reasons and figure out was what happened for the best in the long run? Are we looking past our petty nationalism and to the future (this applies to many issues), or are we basing the future on the past.

    Junkyard
    Member

    You dont even believe that to be the case you are not that stupid or foregtfull…this is just pointless goading and macho BS to provokle a reaction as is Zulus latest post…quite sad grown men behave like this

    And in English?

    Zokes that is exactly what you said last time I challenged you πŸ™„ I am confused is this an attempt to convince me you really are forgetful or that you really are stupid?

    Ah more playground stuff from grown men EXCELLENT

    Premier Icon binners
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    If they do get full independence – I presume we’ll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS (two of the world’s biggest banks – Scotland’s global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term*)?

    That should account for 7,456,987% of GDP for the foreseeable…

    * Quote attributed to a Mr A Salmond. Edinburgh

    druidh
    Member

    binners – Member
    If they do get full independence – I presume we’ll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS

    As long as Scotland gets all the tax revenues paid to the exchequer over the years for Halifax, Bank of Scotland, Birmingham Midshires, RBS and Nat West, that would seem to be an equitable position.

    Diane
    Member

    SBZ – do I qualify?

    D-J

    Doesn’t the petty point scoring come with the territory?

    But I sympathise with your point which stems behind my questions yesterday (before they started some deliberate baiting!). The desire for self-determination is a strong and noble one. In the Scottish case, there is the legal barrier which was temporarily lifted when Cameron tried to call Salmon’s bluff. I understand why Scots may resent Cameron’s intervention but when you step back here was an offer (albeit with some terms) that would allow Scots a simple and timely vote on the subject and would by pass legal obstacles. So as soon as Salmon starts to weasel about when caught temporarily off guard it becomes natural to be suspicious of his motives to the extent that they reflect the nobility of your position.

    nick1962
    Member

    I’m bemused by the great and the good of STW wracking their collective brains over the minutiae of every aspect of independence.
    Let’s get to the big issue:
    Will an independent Scotland be looking for a new Jacobite monarch?

    druidh
    Member

    thm – you can keep repeating that “analysis” as often as you like but it doesn’t make it any more true. It doesn’t work for TJ and it won’t work for you.

    Premier Icon binners
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    Why on earth would they get the tax revenues back? Did none of that go to pay for free prescriptions and zero tuition fees north of the border then?

    Or I suppose it is tax-related. We are, after all, talking about truly gargantuan amounts of British taxpayer cash being used to bail out private Scottish companies. If an independent Scotland had been left holding the baby for RBS and HBOS in 2007/8, where do we think Scotland would be now with regard to austerity measures? In comparison to the rest of the ‘Arc of Prosperity’

    If they do get full independence – I presume we’ll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS

    Does this sort of peurile drivel really constitute someone’s idea of a debate about Scottish independence?

    So drudge. You can wait til 2014 and have a vote without legal consequence and then a period of negotiation (will AS be retired with a pension by then?) or a legally binding yes/no on the fundamental question now?

    Or I suppose it is tax-related. We are, after all, talking about truly gargantuan amounts of British taxpayer cash being used to bail out private British companies.

    FTFY – do you actually understand the basic premise of your argument is flawed, or are you just being lazy about trying to bait people?

    Sorry spell check going into overdrive druidh. I guess it doesn’t like the h. Sorry about the unintentional mis-spelling.

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