Scotland Indyref 2

The SNP seem to get away with piss-poor performance

I don’t think they’re the best at lots of stuff, but the likes of Ross constantly bleat about the attainment gap, education and the health service. Which is ironic given how his party do on all 3 of those in rUK.

However, it was really good to see him and NS on that visit to the drug rehab Centre last week, politician’s SHOULD be collaborating to better society.

As things stand currently, I would vote for Scotch Independence.
Might change my mind as new info comes to date.

Not a definite position but, on balance, I think it’s the right thing for the country.

I’ve no doubt Scotland will get independence one day, but the SNP are going about it just now as if it’s got an expiry date, the entire world is in disarray just now, the UK still hasn’t settled from Brexit and the rest, the EU is in a bit of flux as well, Covid isn’t helping either in terms of bringing any stability, so probably worth focusing on how to improve what they can with what power they have at present, without getting caught up in any IndyRef2 stuff.

As for Scotland being left, or centre left or whatever, it’s just like every other country, it has areas where they are left biased, and areas that are right, it has the affluent areas and poor areas that will vote towards their own benefit, or not at all, it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK, and independence will just bring about a similar output as with any country, they’ll probably pull a bit to the right to start with i’d guess, especially in this day and age.

it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,

Its really not.  Yes it varies across the country but

1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave

4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.

5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england

the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england

anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here

I’m often struck by how much more caring the Scots are of people and society in general.

Does this include Michael Gove?

Gove is not one of the people of Scotland.  I do not know why you continue with this weird charade.  His constituency is in Surrey.  He has not lived here for decades.  He pays no taxes here and has no vote in Scottish elections.

You really are weird

I think the word you are looking for TJ, is troll.

tjagain
Full Member
it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,

Its really not. Yes it varies across the country but

1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave

4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.

5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england

the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england

anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here

Voting means very little to what i said, give the nation a clean sheet and they’ll do the same as others, it’s part and parcel of the western world just now.

As for Anti immigrant getting zero traction, are you being serious!

please do not tell people who live in Scotland what the conditions are.

You seem to tell people who live in England a lot about how shitty their conditions are to live in

Gove is not one of the people of Scotland.

Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?

You really are weird

You are cherry picking, a Scot born and educated in Scotland works in the UK Government deciding policies that directly affect those who live in Scotland. But he’s not one of “the people of Scotland”

The “people of England” get to have him, what you will really hate is that we have you as well….

Agree – have you ever been to Scotland?

Voting is not everything but there is a clear pattern over decades.

Oh – and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric.  Even the tories don’t do it very much here.

WTF Does this mean? ” give the nation a clean sheet and they’ll do the same as others”  Others like the nordic and low countries?  Increase taxation and increase support for the poor?  give workers proper protection?

Just as a wee example – In England tenants get a 6 month ASL tenancy with no protection.  In Scotland ( and its only a few years old we used to use ASLS) we now have the the “scottish residential tenancy” which offers tenants significantly more protection from unfair terms, eviction for spurious reasons etc – and even if you want to sell you have to give many months notice to get the tenants out compared to 1 month on a whim in england

Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?

yes mr troll

its very clear – the people of Scotland are those who have made it their home.  They have the right to vote here  One of the things you seem unable to understand – its not about blood and soil or ethnicity – its about who has made this country their home

what you will really hate is that we have you as well….

You really are weird.  I have lived here for 30 continuous years.  Gove has lived in England for 30+ years.

Are you really that hard of thinking?

Oh – and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric. Even the tories don’t do it very much here.

Remind me, you called Gordon Brown racist for his anti immigration policies and rhetoric

A Scot, representing a Scottish constituency, probably qualifies under your “people of Scotland” criteria, most senior politician in the UK (which includes Scotland) at one time

Yes I know – don’t feed the troll.  I shall go back to ignoring him but it needed to be stated clearly

Go on – quote me calling Brown racist.  go on – quote – a direct quote.  or apologise for your false allegations

tjagain
Full Member
Happily condemn him Ernie. Browns playing of the race card was totally unacceptable. But he is no longer in any position of power.

Seek and ye shall find….

I’m sure you’ll claim that’s not actually calling him racist or accusing him of using racist rhetoric,. Or you can use racist rhetoric but not be racist or some other excuses

So where is the quote that I called him racist.  I made the distinction between” playing the race card” and “being racist” quite clear in that discussion

so once again – are you going to give the quote where i call Brown “racist” or are you going to keep on with your trolling

You really are a weird little troll – what do you get out of this nonsense?  I think you  need psychiatric help

tjagain
Full Member
Agree – have you ever been to Scotland?

Yeah, once or twice ;o)

As for the bit about becoming like other countries, it’s pretty simple, just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence, with uneasy alliances, when there’s a clean slate, i.e. being independent, then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc and those will fit in with metrics you see around the western world.

I made the distinction between” playing the race card” and “being racist” quite clear in that discussion

I would love to see an explanation of how “playing the race card” is not in and of itself racist?

@argee, I think you are generally right there. After Indy, Scotland will be similar, politically, to most of the west. However, Scotland’s voting has been left of the rUK for a long time – not many Tories. It would be reasonable to assume that this will be reflected in any new political movements after indy?

just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence,……………then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc

Errmm – that really is not true – yes the snp ( membership less than 5% of the country, voters around 45% of the electorate) are a broad church from pretty solid socialist to paternalistic centre right.

But the SNP are not the same as the electorate.  Ukip got 7% of the vote at their peak compared to 25% in england – and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future.  they might vote for a future centre right grouping but that movement willbe small

Even before the rise of the SNP and the independence movement the tories were no where near being the biggest party

with metrics you see around the western world.

which bit?  The leftish social democracies of the nordic countires and the low countries?  Or the right wing USA?

the metrics vary tremendously country to country

I just see most of the world has moved to the right, you take away that one party one direction thing and it’ll be a bit of a hodgepot of parties and manifesto’s, will be interesting to see, but first it would be waiting for the dust to settle after any in-fighting and appeasing of those who need it.

Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition? Which “might” be a step in the right direction?

Argee – why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??

pandhandj
Free Member
Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition?

The list system pretty much guarantee’s scotland will be dominated by coalitions. The SNP vote is un-natuarlly high at the minute, a lot of people only lend them their vote I reckon, and will continue to do so, I don’t see this independence/unionist split going away anytime soon.

Apologies Joe, I was meaning after Indy. I guess it will take many years for unionist Scots to disappear, if they ever do. But coalition is good in my wee world… Select the best bits from all ideas, not just stick to 1 parties ideas for 5 years.

I’ve no doubt Scotland will get independence one day, but the SNP are going about it just now as if it’s got an expiry date

This is only true (the “what’s the rush, there is shit going down” argument) if you think ground can not be lost in terms of devolution. Under cover of all the difficult issues you list, some forced on the UK, some made worse by it, and some created by it, the Conservative party will unpick devolution thread by thread. It’ll win them loyalty from their supporters (especially down here), and shift power from bodies they can’t control, to those they can.

but the SNP are going about it just now as if it’s got an expiry date

there is also the internal politics of the SNP – there is a faction that believes Sturgeon is deliberately dragging her feet for reasons i cannot fathom and that Sturgeon does not want independence. There is a faction that believes the SNP should be going for independence now and there is a faction that believes they should wait until its a sure thing

also there is the basic issue that the SNP have been in power too long IMO – parties in power for more than 10 – 12 years run out of ideas , get riven by infighting and get infiltrated by those just after power or to push their own agenda.  this is clearly happening IMO

Put all that together and then the SNP really have no choice but to get the referendum in before 2023.  Otherwise the party will split up into factions and lose power and thus lose the chance

I don’t think those factions are as big or as powerful as you (or they) think. A lot of SNP members have no wish to going back to the days of being a wee diddy party.

No beer – maybe you are right and certainly their discipline is good but labour never wanted to go to being a wee diddy party in Scotland but it happened – mainly from inept leadership and badly misjudging the public mood.

I think if the SNP do not get the referendum within that time scale the pressures will be huge – the fundamentalists will oust Sturgeon and usher in a period of infighting.  Never underestimate the potential of political parties to self destruct.  I would see it as ending up rather like the labour / SDP split although the nature of the electoral system would mean the efffect on the seats gained would be less but I could see them losing enough seats that a labour / tory coalition could control a majority .  labour in Scotland has so lost its way that they will ally with the tories to keep the SNP out as they have done on a number of councils

Those numpties who think that for some weird reason Sturgeon is not committed to independence did rather destroy themselves by aligning with Salmond and ALBA which was a huge success so that might help reinforce discipline

There is also the pressures of the “broad church” with the right wing tartan tories having been purged and they might set off infighting as well. But again a number of “socially conservative” SNP bigwigs wasted their chance with Alba

The factionalisation and infighting in a party in power for too long is something that has been seen in many places at many ties

As for Scotland being left, or centre left or whatever, it’s just like every other country, it has areas where they are left biased, and areas that are right, it has the affluent areas and poor areas that will vote towards their own benefit, or not at all, it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK

Based on how the people of Scotland have voted for decades it’s nothing like the rest of the UK.

If you believe otherwise, show your evidence.

Only evidence is being born and bred up there, growing up in Perthshire where it was a tory haven, moving down to Falkirk and Glasgow where your eyes are opened to the usual issues that have plighted Scotland for generations.

If you take away the London based politics, you’re going to be left with new parties with voters now having no historical issues with voting, i.e. no ‘would never vote tory/labour’, then we’ll see how those parties grow against the backdrop of changes under independence, which will push the voting metrics for me.

no historical issues with voting, i.e. no ‘would never vote tory/labour’

Locally here, that’s been dispelled too btw, loads of folk I know from out in the former mining towns of East Ayrshire are now voting Tory, mainly because Labour are pointless though.

Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂

Davidson successfully made the tories the unionist choice for the electorate.  a good piece of political positioning so traditional labour voters turned to the tories if unionism was more important to them than political positioning right / left.  thats a part of the reward labour got for forgetting the tories are the enemy and aligning with the tories in the independence debate, in going into anti snp coalitions on councils and running the labour / tory non agression pact in the GE.  labour ended up losing a large part of its identity and allowed the tories to take the unionist vote.

AS an aside – does anyone know who the scots labour leader is now?  I have just realised I no longer know!  My situation has led me to take a lot less notice of the news than I used to but as a man who voted solidly labour for 35 years thats a weird one!

Don’t forget one of the important differences in Scotland is election by proportional representation.

If we had a parliament that reflected votes cast in England it would not be as right wing as it is.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Scotland is just generally more sensible and better at government for the people than rUK and give that the rest of us have failed to copy its homework, it should probably just leave (especially as Westminster is looking at ways to reduce devolution).

and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future.

TJ, this is not true in the slightest.

I used to work with someone (now retired) who is a full on Indy supporter he is anti English despite being born and brought up in England to English parents. He is also a full on Brexiteer and I have heard him express pretty horrible racist views. He would vote UKIP in a heartbeat and I would bet there are many others like him. He isn’t thick either, he is a degree qualified engineer.

I think you have rose tinted idea of what Scotland is like, maybe its based on where you live and who you associate with but I don’t believe we are as different to England as you think. Certainly in the poorer areas that have had an influx of EU migrants have a higher proportion of anti immigration views.

The SNP is a broad church from people like me who vote for them as the other option is Tory, to people like yourself who fully support Indy to the full on anti English arseholes. If we got Indy I think things would be different and I don’t believe you can look at current voting patterns to ascertain what people will vote for in the future. People are inherently selfish and will vote for their own benefits.

P.S I am not anti Indy, I swither. Brexit though has also made me battle weary, would be nice to go back to a bit of political calm!

Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂

Absolutely, some of them had Corbyn down as a terrorist sympathiser, idiots. There are some sensible ones amongst our numbers, we’re just not as vocal. 😉

Nobeerinthefridge
Free Member
Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂

Absolutely, some of them had Corbyn down as a terrorist sympathiser, idiots. There are some sensible ones amongst our numbers, we’re just not as vocal. 😉

Yeah, will be funny to see how independence affects them, then again they’ll only be concerned if the number of penalties they get is reduced!