Scotland Indyref 2

Indeed, but by using the same reasoning the government of the UK as a whole was elected with a mandate to oppose a second referendum. Equally democratic.

Yep, and I’ve even suggested in another thread that Boris could safely run back to the UK electorate to renew that mandate.

That presupposes the Scottish legislation is legal.

And Boris has already said he’d challenge it in court. That would clarify the legality.

 See “the roadmap”

Have you read the roadmap? Sections 1 to 9 are just waffle.

10  In these circumstances, in which there has been an unambiguously expressed democratic decision by the people of Scotland and their Parliament to have a legal referendum the choice of the UK Government will be clear; to either (1) agree that the Scottish Parliament already
has the power to legislate for a referendum (which they won’t) or (2) in line with precedent, agree the Section 30 order to put that question beyond any doubt (which they won’t) or (3) take legal action to dispute the legal basis of the referendum and seek to block the will of the Scottish people in the courts. Such a legal challenge would be vigorously opposed by an SNP Scottish Government. (which they have refused to do so far – including fighting against Keating)

i.e. what I just wrote above.

kennyp – there is a difference between unauthorised and illegal but I agree a widespread boycott would kill it

True. This nothing illegal about holding a referendum (I should have phrased my post a bit better). However that referendum would not then give them a legal mandate to declare independence.

I should probably add here that if it can be proved the majority of people want a second referendum I’d be quite happy for it to go ahead. I don’t just blindly object to one regardless. My gripe is the SNP claiming that a second referendum is the stated will of the Scottish people when the last election showed otherwise.

The only way to prove the majority of folk want a second referendum is to have a referendum on it. We know that there are SNP and Green voters who are content with devolution and that there are Labour and LibDem voters who would be happier with independence, hell there might even be a few IndyTories. Trying to divide the pros and antis across party lines just can’t work. That’s why we have to accept the mandate of the elected government and take it from there.

FWIW, I believe that there are many in the SNP who do not want independence. Why would they? They have a degree of power already, they can legislate on some of their pet subjects without interference and are likely to remain in government for quite some time given the state of the other parties. Why rock the boat and chance being chucked out as a result of the first iScot General Election?

FWIW, I believe that there are many in the SNP who do not want independence. Why would they? They have a degree of power already, they can legislate on some of their pet subjects without interference and are likely to remain in government for quite some time given the state of the other parties. Why rock the boat and chance being chucked out as a result of the first iScot General Election?

I know you know more of internal SNP stuff than I do but I do not believe this at all. Maybe a few of the idiots at westminster but the leadership? No

Any evidence?

And here come the co ordinated attacks on Sturgeon.

the report is not even released yet but has been leaked to form the narrative the way the unionists want leading to attacks from David Davies and Starmer on spurious grounds

the killer report will be the independent one into whether she mislead holyrood.

Tories blowing self congratulatory smoke up each other’s arses, entirely par for the course and I so want to see Alister Jack get a shooing come election time.

Could see blowback from this on the Tories

Murray & Davidson look bad now

Sunday Times leaking testimonies of 2 of the accusers is pretty dire as well

Next set of polling will probably reflect all this

Draft independence bill published

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/strategy-plan/2021/03/draft-independence-referendum-bill/documents/draft-independence-referendum-bill/draft-independence-referendum-bill/govscot%3Adocument/draft-independence-referendum-bill.pdf

Read the forward, reminds me of this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/21/scot-london-never-scottish-enough-snp/

I’m not sure Fraser Nelson pulling the oppressed minority, bullied by the nats, card is that credible?

The spectator pushed brexit, knowing that it wasn’t what Scotland wanted, like much of the tory establishment they have to assume some culpability

The spectator pushed brexit, knowing that it wasn’t what Scotland wanted, like much of the tory establishment they have to assume culpability

Scotland isn’t an amorphous blob despite as Trevor Phillips points out 25+ years of re-education that everything good is tartan and everything bad is English as a form of gangster politics.

It seems that an awful lot of Scots the SNP want to disown as busy making Britain what it is today, yet it’s always the English that get the blame

yet it’s always the English that get the blame

go on – one example of the SNP blaming the english for anything. Just one tiny example. direct quote =from SNP policy or publications.

Trevor philips – that well known racist. Great source.

The SNP feelings towards Scots ex pats in Surrey

tjagain
Full Member
Trevor philips – that well known racist. Great source.

Posted 8 minutes ago
REPLY | REPORT

I’ll email him a link and see if a. He reads it (I’m sure he gets his fair share of crank emails so might as well add to it), and b. Whether he thinks it’s actionable

go on – one example of the SNP blaming the english for anything. Just one tiny example. direct quote =from SNP policy or publications.

Your confidence comes from the constant use of “Westminster” as the code for the evil English

go on. He got kicked out of the labour party for being racist so its not actionable. its fair comment.

Better sue a dozen newspapers and the labour party while you are at it

So you have no examples then just a desire to make an allegation that has no foundation. Must try harder

Only in your odd mind does Westminster = english. anyone sensible can see the difference – especially this English born man of English parents with an English accent.

go on. He got kicked out of the labour party for being racist so its not actionable. its fair comment.

If you bothered to watch the link you would know he is still suspended, as he put it Schrödinger’s labour party member

Ian Blackbird referring to Westminster as the English Parliament

View the Hansard contribution by Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) on Tuesday 4 February 2020 https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-02-04/debates/A3B1554C-FB48-4F9B-A6EA-B78AD05D0E02/NHSFundingBill?highlight=english#contribution-6B2353B4-2769-467F-8F51-3C2E7E76173C

Mhairi Black

To those who say that we are represented here and that we can change things, I say this: we have tried and we are outvoted at every turn. This gets to the crux of why independence is the only option left for Scotland. Let me give some context: Scotland has 59 MPs and the city of London 73 MPs. This is a Union that England dominates. The only reason why there is not an English Parliament is that the people in Westminster view this place as the English Parliament. We cannot afford to be naive. The only way to protect our Parliament is to become independent.

The irony when you look at the demographics of London is amusing

nothing there blaming the english for everything. Must try harder.

Big_n_daft’s disappointment with the result is absolutely palpable isn’t it?

Isn’t it just. I love the evidence for england being blamed for everything.

Your confidence comes from the constant use of “Westminster” as the code for the evil English

theres a secret code now?

Im not even sure that works, ‘westminster’ being the bad guy is true from every part of the UK, including England

meanwhile hows the scottish salmon industry doing out of Johnsons brexit?

The @Foodanddrinkfed has published a snapshot of UK food & drink exports in January to accompany the ONS data. Stark stats galore: Salmon exports to the EU fell by 98% compared to Jan 2020, beef by 91.5%. Pork (-86.9%) & cheese (-85.1%) close behind. Exports to ?? fell by 84.9%. pic.twitter.com/ofLxYP9ugW

— Adam Payne (@adampayne26) March 22, 2021

Spit the dummy?

Good lord some desperate posts from BnD

Big_n_daft’s disappointment with the result is absolutely palpable isn’t it?

More disappointed in the whole sleezy affair

Very disappointed that everyone is supposed to believe that she was not aware of Salmonds behaviour until the first allegations were formally briefed to her. That not one person seems to have asked why she and the SNP were unaware of his behaviour before the first allegations

Even more disappointed that political parties appear to harbour a disproportionate number of sexual predators that no-one sees, where complaints are managed slowly, and the perpetrators protected and excused

But you know, at least she followed process when it was formalised

I’m sure “lessons have been learned” and the SNP has revamped it’s process to deal with allegations.

BnD has a point

The failures of the SNP in this were many, but the likes of the Spectator, Tories both sides of the border & plenty of unionists (including BnD) were so desperate to weaponise it to take down Sturgeon (they fear her) , that once it was decided she didn’t break the ministerial code, then they’re left high & dry.

The MSPs that leaked testimonies of the accusers now stand out as being the villains

Ross & the Scottish Tories really have ballsed this up

Possibly NSFW

So salmonds revenge is to help out the Tories….. 🤯

Looks like it. complete fud.

splitting the pro independence list vote makes a pro independence majority less likely

That youtube clip is ridiculous. Sturgeon moved the SNP to the left. sheer nonsense.

Jeepers scotroutes you have not half gone down a rabbit hole

tjagain
splitting the pro independence list vote makes a pro independence majority less likely

He is being very careful not to split the vote.

The Alba party are standing candidates in the list seats only. Their policy is simple, independence first and foremost. This will appeal to many independence supporters who feel the Sturgeon regime have been avoiding the open goals continually presented to them over the last couple of years.

The d’Hondt system means that if the SNP do as well as expected in the constituency seats, then they will not gain any list seats. Millions of SNP votes for list candidates may as well be put in the bucket.

This happened in 2016 and we got Tories, a SNP list vote being depreciated to 1/10 the value of a vote for a Tory.

The SNP follow a strategy of encouraging voters to vote SNP 1+1. This is for the benefit of the SNP, not independence. It is a strategy that prevents the growth of alternative independence parties and followed even though they know it means we get Tories and Labour instead.

When a party is polling as well as the SNP is, independence is best served if the constituency vote is SNP, and the list vote goes to an alternative independence party, thus reducing the seats won by the Tories, Labour, and Wee Willy Winky’s mob.

Up to now the only alternative with any clout has been the Green party, and they have mopped up a lot of votes from people who vote for the SNP with the first vote.

Now that the Alba party represents a serious alternative, they are a serious threat to the Greens. Serious enough that the Greens are spitting with rage judging by their public statements about Alba.

The SNP are incandescent, especially as there are some defections and some more to come by the look of it. The Sturgeon cultists are absolutely rabid and vicious on social media.

Life has just got a lot more interesting…

For TJ https://archive.is/28ihM

epicyclo – he is splitting the vote.

Pro independence list votes used to be split SNP and Greens, now split SNP, Green, ALBA.

all this will achieve is taking list seats away from the greens and make it easier for tories and labour to get list seats

This is not about gaining independence – its about Salmonds ego and Salmonds revenge. He would rather stop a pro independence majority if he can damage Sturgeon.

Its not “sturgeon cultists” being rabid and vicious – I have seen huge numbers of posts from ex Salmond supporters stating he is a fud for doing this. I have seen huge numbers of posts from the wider independence movement slating Salmond.

How can anyone suppoort this self confessed sex pest who will not apologise for his disgraceful actions

At least this means he has burnt his bridges with the SNP which is good because if he had been readmitted the SNP would have lost my vote and that of many others

Epicyclo – have a read of the comments here. Not much love for Salmond

https://www.facebook.com/Standupforscotland/

@tjagain, have a read of this https://archive.is/28ihM

I’m aware Salmond is marmite, but bear in mind the SNP has shed something like 50,000 members in the last few years because of unhappiness about the unsavoury and undemocratic goings on within the party. Not to mention the smell of financial malfeasance with half the audit committee resigning recently because they are not allowed to see the books.

Guess where those voters will go.

Alba will only split the vote if they stand in constituency seats. On current form the SNP will get no list seats. So the choice there is Vote SNP2 for the list, and let the Tories in, or vote for an alternative independence party and increase the number of independence MSPs in Holyrood.

sorry epicyclo – you have it wrong IMO on splitting the vote. They will dilute the green list vote and thus reduce the number of pro independence MSPs Pro independence list vote will be split 3 ways not 2 and thus allow more tories and labour in

Salmond is not marmite anymore – he is kryptonite. a huge turn off to the voters