greyspoke – that is correct as I see it

The Yes side wanted a split of assets and liabilities along population lines. Westminster s=said no to this hence starting the row about debts ( to oversimplify greatly)

I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU

Because that is not an option, iS could start to use the Euro, not the same being part of the Euro zone and as has been pointed out numerous times above joining the EU isn’t like joining a Gym where you rock up with some id and a deposit and you get a membership card.

Hence the idea of using the £ in transition.

personally I like the euro option but its been so demonised in the right wing press that its a hard sell

As for the rest of it? I suggest you do two things. Read up the debate from last time and read up on statements from the EU about iScotland

I asked for a clear explanation not Brexit level tripe

If you can’t explain what currency you will use for your “virtually instant” EU membership then clearly it’s on a par with Brexit.

If you can’t register that EU membership means a customs border with England demanded by the EU you are a Govite fantasist.

If you think you can walk away without carrying some of the national debt without consequences you are descending into comedy.

SNP can’t even get Social Security Scotland up and running, how they get away with claiming a smooth iS transition is possible in their hands is beyond me.

Hence the idea of using the £ in transition.

It’s not an idea, it is a fantasy. EU will never let you join with a third party currency. Find any credible EU reference that it is possible, if you can’t it’s a Brexit style say anything to get the vote strategy

Because that is not an option

It’s not a ‘current’ option, but that means nothing – so back to my question:

“I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU.”

Why have folk a problem with adopting the Euro – what’s the problem?

Its not up to me what currency is used there is a lot of info out there about the options. I have told you what I think – use the euro and what the YES position was last time – £ as a transitional currency. Floating a scottish poound is another option. I do not make that decision. Its a decision for the scots government

On the debt – I think you really do need to read up on it. there is no question of a default as the debt legally would belong to rUK as the successor state

Really – there is a huge amount of good info out there. there is nothing further I can say

I DO NOT MAKE THE DECISIONS

“I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU.”

Why have folk a problem with adopting the Euro – what’s the problem?

It ties you into a currency that works for Germany (low value so exports not impacted) with all the risks of Greece and Italy (and others) structurally tied into it

Why have folk a problem with adopting the Euro – what’s the problem?

Sovereignty. The right-wing, media and politicians, have been pushing this as a problem for years. It’s related to the UKs overblown idea of where it sits in the world order.

I DO NOT MAKE THE DECISIONS

Yet you have such a clear opinion on what is possible without any recognition of the contradictions

With the “transitional” £ you can’t “virtually instantly” rejoin the EU

Yet you don’t campaign for immediate adoption of the euro to enable the “virtually instant”, why? It’s a vote loser.

Reminds me of a recent campaign where messages ignored the contradictions to get votes.

Let me think what was that much maligned campaign…..?

I still reckon King Charles III’s mug will be on the £ soon & people will feel less attached to it

Floating a scottish poound is another option.

Without reserves you will be at the mercy of the markets, walk away with no debt you don’t get any reserves and you already run a deficit. Your bond rates will be eye watering

I still reckon King Charles III’s mug will be on the £ soon & people will feel less attached to it

We will be significantly cashless by then so who will see it?

Sovereignty. The right-wing, media and politicians, have been pushing this as a problem for years. It’s related to the UKs overblown idea of where it sits in the world order.

Makes you wonder why the progressive paradise north of the border can’t see through it.

Why isn’t it SNP/ green policy to adopt straight away?

It ties you into a currency that works for Germany (low value so exports not impacted) with all the risks of Greece and Italy (and others) structurally tied into it

Remind us how much ‘value’ Sterling has lost against the Euro – I’ll help, it’s over 25%.

So you’re saying that Sterling works for Scotland (as opposed to the UK), or that it doesn’t?

Add in that the SNP defence position isn’t compatible with NATO membership (no nukes and <2% defence spending).

quite a lot of NATO countries don’t have nukes. Only USA, UK and France do.

quite a lot of NATO countries don’t have nukes. Only USA, UK and France do

But they all allow nukes on their soil. SNP policy is no nukes in Scotland

So you’re saying that Sterling works for Scotland (as opposed to the UK), or that it doesn’t?

I’m saying you can’t join the EU with sterling whether it’s “transitional” or not.

It’s perfectly reasonable to join the euro but there are downsides as well as upsides

Just like being in the EU single market as a member has benefits but means a EU imposed hard border with England

Indeed it is. (SNP policy) Where is rUK going to put the subs? play hardball and get two weeks notice to quit. We do not want hukes on our soil. Like many other countries around the world and as above – retaining NATO membership was pushed thru by Salmond against long standing SNP policy

We ( generally) do not have the delusion of grandeur that little englanders suffer from.

Most of us up here would be happy with neutrality and certainly have no appetite to go around pretending we are billy big baws with our big weapons being thrust at everyone

But they all allow nukes on their soil. SNP policy is no nukes in Scotland

only a few NATO countries host American nukes (Belgium, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Turkey)

Most of us up here would be happy with neutrality and certainly have no appetite to go around pretending we are billy big baws with our big weapons being thrust at everyone

Your strategy on iS contributing to UN peacekeeping missions is noted

Putting words in my mouth again Big and Daft – you do live up to your name.

so you need to play at being Billy big baws to contribute to UN peacekeeping missions and be in nato as well?

Really – educate yorself on independence issues. Yo will find it enlightening

I never said it would be an open boarder. i said how difficult the boarder would be would depend a lot on rUKs attitudes as we see in the channel ports right now

Nobeer, yeah; thats what I was alluding to.

so you need to play at being Billy big baws to contribute to UN peacekeeping missions and be in nato as well?

I thought you wanted out of NATO and to slash defence spending? Or are you flip flopping to suit?

At least airplane spotting will get more interesting.

I never said it would be an open boarder. i said how difficult the boarder would be would depend a lot on rUKs attitudes as we see in the channel ports right now

So you are proposing a hard border for your relationship with rUK before EU membership? Bold!

I was talking about the EU single market border after your “virtually instant” EU membership. You have still to mention where the lorry parks are in Scotland for this.

Remind me what currency are you entering the EU with? Remember the “transitional pound” is Brexit like tripe and you really don’t want to sound like that nice Scot Mr Gove….

And how long will it take to adopt it???

Big n daft…so do tell me, on all these threads you have a one eyed view of Scottish independence. So; what are the advantages for Scotland of the status quo. Go on; sell it to me!

It’s perfectly reasonable to join the euro but there are downsides as well as upsides

Hmm, so based on you saying it’s kept low to help Germany export and that Scotland exports a high percentage than the UK does, as a whole – then this would mean that we’d benefit from the Euro.

Correct?

And defence spending of +2% – how can the UK afford to spend this?

If Scotland vote for independence they’re walking into the EU and the euro. Why? Because for the first time since the vikings the English will be surrounded. And the French are rubbing their hands. Geo-politically it’s a winner for France and frankly I’m for it.
With Brexit and the rise in support for Welsh independence over the last year and a bit its safe to say Westminster is spent both at home and abroad.

We received a Tory flyer through the door, no mention of policy, just repeatedly slamming SNP. They’ve got nothing.

I got that one too. A mate posted some FB nonsense from the tories about SNP not spending enough on business, funnily enough my reply of “something something **** business” went unanswered.

If Scotland vote for independence they’re walking into the EU and the euro. Why? Because for the first time since the vikings the English will be surrounded. And the French are rubbing their hands. Geo-politically it’s a winner for France and frankly I’m for it.
With Brexit and the rise in support for Welsh independence over the last year and a bit its safe to say Westminster is spent both at home and abroad

What a load of tripe, the only people rubbing their hands are the acolytes of Putin

Big n daft…so do tell me, on all these threads you have a one eyed view of Scottish independence. So; what are the advantages for Scotland of the status quo. Go on; sell it to me

The people with one eye are the Indy supporters who are impersonating Admiral Nelson. I haven’t seen so much cake and eat it since the Brexit campaign.

The advantages of being a valued part of a G7 country, one where Scots and ” people of Scotland” can have the highest offices of state. Where they contribute to something which is bigger than the sum of it’s parts. I’m not going to put Scotland down, it’s a great place (it even took TJ from England, not sure it’s a a fair exchange for Michael Gove), but as throughout the UK it’s poorly served by the political class. Brexit maybe a terrible mistake or just a reset, I don’t know, I didn’t vote for it. The parallels of the Scottish independence debate with Brexit are clear, creation of artificial division, contradictory positions, no plan that stands up to any scrutiny, and the selling of something that won’t exist. Sound familiar?

Can Scotland be independent, of course it can. It’s just a shame that it destroys something better on the back of lies and deceit, with the EU membership/ currency/ border fantasy as the outstanding example. Both England and Scotland will be the poorer for it.

@Bigndaft I don’t think you have answered Duckmans question.

Aye, that was a Boris answer.

Not really mentioning any benefits there BND. What if we were sick of 400 year old promises that we could be “part of something bigger” And had the opportunity to do something about it?

No, a U.K. G7 seat is not a benefit when the Scottish electorates part of that voice is a small minority.

And seats within the U.K. government is also not a benefit.

Part of something bigger? What’s that then? The U.K. that many/some want to leave?

Aye, that was a Boris answer.

I literally read it as “waffle pish waffle”

Scotland is an altogether different matter. Its history is our history. Its contribution to the world through its literature and philosophy, exploration and art, is our contribution. Its departure — with no disrespect to the Welsh — would represent the end of the United Kingdom. The rest of the world would instantly see that we were no longer a front-rank power, or even in the second row. We would instead be one of the great majority of countries who are on the receiving end of the decisions made by a few, subject to the values of others. We would become another historically interesting case study in how successful nations can perform unexpected acts of national suicide.

George Osborne.

I think it nearly shows the still-colonial thinking and fear of diminished power we expect from the English nationalists. It also puts to bed the notion that these folk have the interests of the Scottish people at heart when discussing the constitutional future of the UK.

The National newspaper has some interesting articles today

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19033541.snp-unveils-plan-hold-indyref2—even-boris-johnson-says-no/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19033561.snps-road-scottish-independence-referendum-plan-full/?ref=ar

Indeed, I think that gets to the heart of the matter of why so many English people seem so hell bent on keeping Scotland whilst at the same time constantly saying that Scotland is a drain on the UK coffers.

It’s something I’ve never been able to get my head around but it’s basically an anti-Brexit. Instead of ‘Take back control’ it’s ‘Keep control’. There’s not really much more substance than that. It’s pure ego stroking in order to desperately cling onto the idea that England is still a great power.

Maybe Brexit and Independence had more in common than I thought. Just not in the way the British Nationalists seem to think it does.

big_n_daft
…but as throughout the UK it’s poorly served by the political class.

The beauty of independence is we no longer have to tolerate that.

We can be a normal independent country, and change our politicians. At the moment we get the govt England wants.

,,,Can Scotland be independent, of course it can. It’s just a shame that it destroys something better

It’s only better for England.

The National newspaper has some interesting articles today

About time.

The National newspaper has some interesting articles today

Oh absolutely. Because when a paper uses phrases long the lines of “We can exclusively reveal……” you can be 100% sure it’s an accurate story and not just derived from a journalist being told “Well he said to him who told her who’s cat heard it from a neighbour’s budgie etc.”

Not really mentioning any benefits there BND.

Because the trap is you logically imply Scotland can’t do something or would do it worse and that acts as a rallying call for all the nationalists. The point is the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts.

Scots nationalism seems to be an exercise in whitewashing (or blue and white if you prefer) history. Scots and Scotland were not put upon by the English and Welsh, they were active participants sometimes leaders of both good and bad parts of our collective history. It’s all the fault of this entity ” Westminster” and “little Englanders” etc not the English as bring rude about them wouldn’t be civic.

It’s pure ego stroking in order to desperately cling onto the idea that England is still a great power.

Fantasy tripe, we all know that UK forces can do little in isolation. That’s the strength of being in a military alliance where you spend a decent amount on being able to jointly defend your interests. An alliance that TJ and many other pro iS campaigners want to weaken.

The biggest fantasy is that the pro independence campaign isn’t similar to Brexit. The messages are vague about the future; pro EU membership, we’ll rejoin “virtually instantly”, not so sure, we will have a referendum on it. Trade will be without barriers with rUK and the EU and if we join the EU it will be the English with the lorry parks. Etc etc

There are only three currency options for EU membership, euro, Merks and bawbee’s or an EU member currency. The pro Indy pro EU campaigners can’t or won’t answer it. Why? Because the realities of each option lose votes for independence.

Brexit all over again, lies, fudges, false division, grievance politics, othering.