Richard Leonard gone, will anyone really notice?

I heard two different news readers stutter when trying to name him today.

Says it all really.

SNP are going to weaponise the crap out of this

Staggering statistic: Up to 40% of fish sold at a Danish auction so far this year are believed to have come from Scottish boats circumventing UK disruption

Industry figures fear it might be the start of a permanent shift, not just a temporary work aroundhttps://t.co/XiSHJqtQ17

— Adam Payne (@adampayne26) January 15, 2021

Well if lack of vaccinations are fair game for Ruth the mooth then they can crack on.

Not quite sure your point there duckman. the scottish government have been putting a lot of effort into getting care homes vaccinated and are now at over 90% and deaths in care homes in Scotland are falling. A big difference to England and Wales

Vaccinating care home residents is slower and more labour intensive hence reduced vaccinations to the next priority group compared to England

England went for the low hanging fruit for headlines, Scotland went for the clinical priority

Not quite sure your point there duckman. the scottish government have been putting a lot of effort into getting care homes vaccinated and are now at over 90% and deaths in care homes in Scotland are falling. A big difference to England and Wales

I don’t think that’s what Duckman was saying, he was making the point (I think!) that the wee blue referees assistant was using vaccinatons against Scotgov, so they’ve already (once again) shown their willingness to use anything to get at the current incumbents.

I wondered onto Davidsons facebook page. 7 of the first 8 posts were SNP baaaaaaaaaad. I politely suggested that some promotion of tory policy might be more apt.

There is also from another tory ( ruddy facebook algorithm) Slating labour for refusing to join a unionist alliance with the tories.

does one suspect their cupboard is somewhat bare?

It also amuses me that the unionists use lies or distortions to attack the SNP when there are actual real issues to attack them on.

Whilst there’s plenty to attack the SNP for TJ, I think the UK Govt is giving them more ammunition daily than they are creating themselves. The steady erosion of constitutional norms and parliamentary scrutiny to put ever more power in the hands of the Executive is one of the aims they have on which they seem to be succeeding.

Sturgeon just needs to shut up and let Johnson do her indy job for her winding up enough people so that a vote is done on emotion rather than logic. SNP will have learned from Brexit succeeding that it is possible to win that way.

SNP will have learned from Brexit succeeding that it is possible to win that way.

Brexit was ‘won’ by shouting of blatant lies, not keeping quiet.

I wandered onto Davidsons facebook page. 7 of the first 8 posts were SNP baaaaaaaaaad.

We received a Tory flyer through the door, no mention of policy, just repeatedly slamming SNP. They’ve got nothing.

Brexit was ‘won’ by shouting of blatant lies, not keeping quiet.

It was, but the PM and his cabinet are running such a constant stream of nonsense that the SNP don’t need to go out and invent the lies like Vote Leave did because Westminster is writing their material for them. Just need to record and playback come any vote.

They’ve got nothing.

The only way is down for them now surely, unless Labour manage to rustle up yet another pointless buffoon (they do seem a speciality these days). They had the Brexit bounce, when all the died in the wool unionists couldn’t bring themselves to vote for anything corbyn related, that’s gone, independence is the only vehicle that will bring those folk back to the Scots tories, that’s why they keep bringing it up.

Yet thats what they accuse Sturgeon of.

I don’t think Scottish Labour actually have any talent. Sarwar has chucked his hat in the ring again with a press statement that is just dim meaningless deluded drivel and now Lennon has as well. Never really heard of her but she appears to be a nonentity

I’m not really aware of Sarwar tbh, but there’s a dozen Monica Lennons in the party.

Its getting to the point I actually feel a bit sorry for Scottish Labour. They are one election away from disappearing into the same obscurity as the Lib Dems up here.

But what are they for? In theory they should be a pro-union, but pro-reform, social democratic party that has a solid base amongst left leaning voters who aren’t quite sold on full Indy. Instead they offer absolutely nothing. The pro-union, pro Brexit, vote coalesces round the Tories and Labour’s own political doctrine stops them from co-operating with the SNP even on policy areas they agree with.

They aren’t just bereft of talent, they are bereft of a reason to exist at the moment.

unless Labour manage to rustle up yet another pointless buffoon

A challenge I believe they are willing to accept

Scottish labour need a proper divorce from Westminster and a coherent policy on the constitution

their behaviour since losing power in Holyrood has been appalling and its cost them influence and votes.

To be fair to Monica Lennon, she has previous in suggesting that Scottish Labour should actually be an independent political party, not what it is now – Labour in Scotland. I get the impression that she is rather more forward-looking/realistic concerning Scotlands destiny. She is also previously on record backing the right of Scots to have a referendum (though I believe she has now backtracked since she put her hat in the ring). Anyroadup, Sarwar, the millionaires son, will get the job. The folk financing Labour, and who called the shots in dumping Leonard, don’t want it any other way.

Could be an interesting couple of months…

Labour leadership contest.

Martin Keating S30 case.

Salmond harrasment enquiry.

SNP leadership contest.

Holyrood election.

Agree re the Keatings case, could be very interesting.

Ta for that on Lennon.

If the SNP really do descend into an internal fight they are putting the independence cause back hugely. I cannot understate how stupid that would be. Are they looking to labour and saying ” thats a good idea?”

Er – SNP leadership contest? Do you know something we don’t Scotroutes?

Er – SNP leadership contest? Do you know something we don’t Scotroutes?

I would suggest he is alluding to this

Salmond harrasment enquiry.

Martin Keating S30 case

It won’t get resolved before the SNP starts imploding over the who knew what when and did she/ didn’t she lie in Holyrood. They need a successor quickly and there isn’t a clear front runner/s who can keep the show on the road

Brexit has made independence harder, the EU membership issue is what will highlight it:

EU membership means either the euro or Merks and bawbee’s. You can’t go in with the £

EU membership means a customs border with England and Wales

EU membership is 5-20 years away, is anyone credible claiming it could be quicker? So you now have to get your own trade deal with rUK and EU. Negotiation of which (especially the EU) are not likely to start until after independence.

Add in that the SNP defence position isn’t compatible with NATO membership (no nukes and <2% defence spending). So the global outlook starts to look shabby

Running with the £ is a perfectly respectable option but limits your fiscal policy considerably, any mention of a Scottish currency will see capital flight, anyone with wealth will send their money south

Big and daft – brexit has made independence easier – see the polls and the fact that there is no longer a spanish veto

EU membership is now much easier for iScotland and would be virtually instant. Remember we are complant with all EU law, we have most of the UKs fishing stock, we would be a net contributor and most importantly of all the rest of the EU would delight in sticking two fingers up to rUK

We do not want to be in NATO anyway. It was a decidedly stupid policy change from Salmond pushed thru without a vote to pander to right wing press.

Capital flight? From England to scotland so they can remain in a (sort of) english speaking country and have frictionless access to the EU

Most of the people here look to small, wealthy neutral countries and think ” that who we a=want to be like” No delusions of grandeur. In 2014 the unionists tried the attack line ” post independent scotland would have no more influence that finland on the world stage” we gave a collective shrug and said ” seems about right”

EU membership is now much easier for iScotland and would be virtually instant. Remember we are complant with all EU law, we have most of the UKs fishing stock, we would be a net contributor and most importantly of all the rest of the EU would delight in sticking two fingers up to rUK

What currency is iS taking into this “virtually instant” rejoining the EU?

Can you enter without satisfying the fiscal rules on deficit?

Where are you building the lorry parks for the customs border?

What currency is iS taking into this “virtually instant” rejoining the EU?

to be decided by the government of the time. The £ is the interim / transitional option. A great deal depends on how hardball Westminster play

Can you enter without satisfying the fiscal rules on deficit?

Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.

Where are you building the lorry parks for the customs border?

Why would we need to? Westminster going to put up barricades?

What currency is iS taking into this “virtually instant” rejoining the EU?

You have two options, the Euro or merks and bawbees, a “transitional” option of the £ doesn’t exist. Any vague wishy washy guff is just Brexit level misdirection. How long will it take iS to transition to this currency to achieve “virtually instant” EU membership?

Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.

What has Westminster got to do with the iS deficit? Why will the EU allow a non EU country to fudge it? How is iS going to comply with the basics if its running a deficit outside the accepted norm for joining or continuing membership?

Why would we need to? Westminster going to put up barricades?

The EU will demand the barriers as there are at the channel. Westminster I believe tried to negotiate out of them but couldn’t come to terms. The EU take the border of the single market very seriously

we would be a net contributor

Really? If so how much will you be net contributing?

What has Westminster got to do with the iS deficit?

because the settlement between rUK and iScotland will have a huge bearing on it. Thats why. rUK plays hardball as they have threatened thus leading scotland to take non of the debt is a very different situation from an amicable settlemnent where scotland takes its share of the debt. debt repayments are a huge part of it.

the fudge would be from the EU side

because the settlement between rUK and iScotland will have a huge bearing on it. Thats why. rUK plays hardball as they have threatened thus leading scotland to take non of the debt is a very different situation from an amicable settlemnent where scotland takes its share of the debt. debt repayments are a huge part of it.

the fudge would be from the EU side

Whilst I don’t doubt there will be strong negotiation a rule of thumb will be based on population is surely the guide. What are the SNP proposals? If you don’t take any debt and in effect default good luck raising money on the bond markets (sorry I forgot you will be running a surplus)

It’s all academic unless Boris or whoever else is in Westminster LETS Scotland have another referendum. At the moment that is not going to happen so there is no legal route to independence. I can’t see the EU looking too kindly on Scotland starting a civil war.

Ironically Brexit makes it easier to sell the idea of independence and a lot harder to successfully achieve it. Mind you, sounds like you have an oven ready, grass will be greener solution for all the tedious issues. The reality is even with everyone keen to make things work these things take decades. In this case rUK will be looking to put the boot in at every opportunity assuming we still have the Tories in power, thats how bullies operate, and its still looking likely they will remain in power for some time to come. Magic Grandad saw to that.

It should also be noted that EU membership for iS will probably be another referendum after independence is achieved. Plenty on this thread acknowledge that it is not a settled issue and it’s likely to be a referendum to set the policy as it’s giving away part of the sovereignty just gained.

But you know, keep going with the Brexit level tripe of “virtually instant”. As I said nobody credible is saying it can be done in less than 5 years.

tjagain Full Member
If the SNP really do descend into an internal fight they are putting the independence cause back hugely. I cannot understate how stupid that would be. Are they looking to labour and saying ” thats a good idea?”

I had the impression that an internal fight within the SNP has been bubbling under for several years already. One of the flash points was who would be their candidate for Edinburgh Central in this year’s election, I think. Looks like Angus Robertson won out over Joanna Cherry on that one.

When a party has been in power for a long time and its opposition has remained weak it becomes increasingly likely that it’ll start suffering from internal divisions. The SNP feels noteworthy for having largely kept a lid on theirs for so long.

Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.

If Scotland votes for independence while the UK is still smarting from the harsh realities of Brexit (and grievances no doubt stoked by the right wing press) then I imagine that there’d be a lot of pressure on the Westminster government to treat Scotland as badly “just like what the EU did to us”. I can certainly imagine that a Tory government in Westminster would see acting in that way as a vote winner.

What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?

Whilst I don’t doubt there will be strong negotiation a rule of thumb will be based on population is surely the guide. What are the SNP proposals? If you don’t take any debt and in effect default good luck raising money on the bond markets (sorry I forgot you will be running a surplus)

Short memory?

the SNP want a fair division based around population. During 2014 the unionists said Scotland would not get this in particular in relation to the pound – which is owned in part by scotland.

It was also made clear at the time that scotland taking on any of the debt is truely voluntary but the Yes side accepted they would take a fair share unless Westminster played hardball. Westminster confirmed that all the debt would legally be rUKs thus scotland would not be in default

Really dude – I know you are anti independence but at least get your arguments right!

What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?

Nothing. Why would it change?

What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?

Nothing. Why would it change?

Sorry I jumped two steps to iScotland in EU. I was reading the piece below. It’s from here, quite old in fairness.

https://fullfact.org/scotland/pensions-independent-scotland/

Private pensions would be affected by EU law

While public service pensions would also continue to be protected, private pensions might be affected. Scotland’s accountancy body ICAS has said Scottish independence would have far-reaching implications for private-sector pensions due to European Union law. Pension schemes operating between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be classified as ‘cross-border’ after independence, and EU rules mean that if a pension scheme is run in more than one member state then it needs to immediately be fully funded rather than have a staged recovery plan. It says it remains unclear how this funding issue is likely to be satisfactorily resolved.

Edit, possibly not relevant now due to brexit.

the SNP want a fair division based around population.

Fine

During 2014 the unionists said Scotland would not get this in particular in relation to the pound – which is owned in part by scotland.

It’s owned by the UK, you are leaving, what is there to own other than potentially a share of currency reserves? It’s not valued as a business is, there is no share capital, no goodwill. Similarly you will be able to use the £ but not print it.

It was also made clear at the time that scotland taking on any of the debt is truely voluntary but the Yes side accepted they would take a fair share unless Westminster played hardball. Westminster confirmed that all the debt would legally be rUKs thus scotland would not be in default

Good luck with that hypothesis. If you want any of the assets you take a share of the debt. Otherwise you are essentially nationalising property of another state.

Still waiting for any details on the “virtually instant” EU membership, currency, net contribution, fiscal alignment, EU single market border etc. Ideally a level up from the Brexit level rubbish posted previously. It’s almost Gove like in its certainty that there is a simple deal to be had that ignores all the conflicting issues that stop that. I know he’s a Scot but he isn’t one of “the people of Scotland” so you don’t have to be the same.

Its not a hypothesis. That was stated by the unionists from westminster at the time, Westminster threatened to withhold all assets, The Yes side said then we will take non of the debt, westminster then had to accept legally the debt would then be all be theirs and this caused huge panic.

it was not Scotland threatening to take none of the debt. It was westminster threatening not to have a fair distribution of assets

As for the rest of it? I suggest you do two things. Read up the debate from last time and read up on statements from the EU about iScotland

I am puzzled by this ownership of the £, liability for the debts point. The intangible assets and liabilities of the UK ultimately belong to the UKs shareholders who are surely us, the people, whether English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. To the extent that anyone “owns the £” it is the Bank of England, of which the UK government is the sole shareholder. There is dosh sitting in the Bank and debts to/from clearing banks (which have to have accounts with the Bank). These will belong to Scotspeeps on independence and could be transferred to a new Scottish central bank which would thereby have the assets etc. to set up a currency, effectively its share of the £, and to support the local banking system. Similarly for government debt, which also involves a share of the goodwill the UK Government has built up as a good place to stash your dosh. Obvs it is more complicated than that, but this seems like a reasonable overview to me. So to argue differently for assets and liabilities seems to me to require some particularly tricky logic.

I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU, or maybe it’s because folk like Big & Daft are so against independence that ANY issue is enough?

So we’ll need a new currency, so what.

I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU

In theory, you can’t. You need to be a member of the ERM for two years before being considered for the Euro. Of course, as Brexit has shown, in the real world everything is up for negotiation.