Bruce – at that point, would it not be easier to say that Scotland/UK no longer represents your interests/lifestyle/desires and apply for citizenship in whichever country it is you have chosen to make your home? It seems like a false argument to say “I should have a say whether a country I don’t live it should do something, so that I can continue to choose not to live in it”.

You’re assuming it’s easy to get citizenship in all countries. It’s not. I’ve got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.

I was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.

On balance, I think the next referendum should still have the same rules as the previous one. My point is that expats have far more at stake now than last time.

^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?

Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.

Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.

Scotland wouldn’t have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.

I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.

England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’t

Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.

Not automatic but simple and quick.

BruceWee
Free Membe

I was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.

You’re living in fantasy land here and are rambling incoherently. This just takes the buscuit. You’ve literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.

How in the hell is that xenophobic?

There is also currently no such thing as a Scottish citizen, therefore any voting franchise can only include the people that live here, nor a scottish ethnicity that anyone here is trying to promote.

BruceWee
Free Member
^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?

Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.

Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.

Scotland wouldn’t have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.

I’m confused are you against a Scotland in the EU now?

The hell are you gibbering aboot?

BruceWee
Free Member
Which you won’t have after January?

Yes, after January UK expats won’t have an EU passport. Or is that not what you’re asking?

I’m struggling to understand what you are saying here as well.

Let’s try this. You have a job on a project working in Sweden. The project is ending so you start looking around for the next job. You see jobs advertised in Germany, Spain, and Italy but you can’t apply to any of them because they all require EU citizenship. Your project in Sweden ends and you have to go back to the UK because as a non-EU citizen without a job you are not allowed to stay there.

This is the type of scenario I’m talking about. Obviously it’s still not 100% clear what will happen if there is a no-deal Brexit. It could be you get fired from your job in Sweden and kicked out the country immediately.

Even if the WA is ratified it’s not clear if UK citizens will be allowed to move freely between EU countries. Most likely you will be tied to the country you are already in.

Unless the hardest of hard Brexits comes to pass all the UK expats won’t immediately be shipped back to the UK on January 1st. Those of us who don’t secure EU passports will most likely drip back to the UK over the next few years.

Relevance to the independence question? These are UK issues.

You’re living in fantasy land here. You’ve literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.

How in the hell is that xenophobic?

Sorry, I didn’t mean Scotland, I meant the UK.

Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).

The point where I decided I wasn’t moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.

I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.

Thanks for the clarification

BruceWee
Free Member
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.

Fair enough, but since you don’t live here, I don’t think you should have a vote on it.

If you read my posts again I think you’ll find I’m not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.

My only point is that it’s not as black and white as last time and those of us who are currently not living in Scotland have a lot more to lose this time than we did last time.

Not automatic but simple and quick.

Oh I agree, but I don’t think I’d be basing career choices on if / when Scotland gets to rejoin the EU

BruceWee
Free Member
seosamh77, have I said something to offend you? I seem to have gotten you worked up.

If you read my posts again I think you’ll find I’m not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.

I just wasn’t understanding your position, you weren’t making sense. I wasn’t worked up, just not understanding your position. I kinda get you know. basically you would like a vote in a ref.

Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don’t think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)

I think BruceWees point is that he may be deprived of choice.

Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don’t think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)

That would be a change from the previous referendum. Even if you were on the electoral roll you still weren’t able to vote. You had to actually be living in Scotland at the time.

Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?

England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’t

Has it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true

BruceWee
Free Member
Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?

Possibly, but time limited though. I’d need to think more about it to take a firm position.

But I know uk rules are you can vote in uk elections up till 15 years after if you were on the electoral roll, but you aren’t allowed to vote in devolved or local elections. The latter uk rule would tend to exclude it, as essentially a scottish ref is devolved democracy. I could see an argument for people with recent residency say up to 5 years though. I think 15 years is pushing it.

big_n_daft
Free Member
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’t

Has it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true

More to do with point of entry and economic balance than anything else.

Incidentally, I don’t think England is overly xenophobic. I do think it has it’s issues, but so does every country, including scotland.

The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgusting

You’re assuming it’s easy to get citizenship in all countries. It’s not. I’ve got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.

I’m not, although I note its easier to become Swedish (as per your example) than British; and of course not every ex-pat even needs to work to remain where they are (and if there was an entitlement to vote may not be voting in “your” interests). I don’t believe we will see anyone forced to return either to the UK or from the UK to the EU, although of course many many elect to return because it is in their own interests to do so.

Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).

The point where I decided I wasn’t moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.

You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?

I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.

So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you’ve now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might “have” to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I’m sure you can see why people are confused… (FWIW I’m not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 — one of the uncertainties in ’14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).

tjagain
Full Member
The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgusting

Posted 6 minutes ago

What’s a fair proportion? 5%, 10%, 50%?

big_n_daft
Please start a separate thread if you are introducing this tripe (see what I did there?)

Yes I saw it – kudos 🙂

But I also started a separate thread a while back. 🙂

Independence for the North of England

You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?

Currently devolved. I’m assuming nothing.

You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?

I do realise. Nevertheless, to hear a minister spouting such blatantly xenophobic crap was still chilling. You think the UK government’s xenophobia is limited to it’s education ministry?

So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you’ve now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might “have” to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I’m sure you can see why people are confused… (FWIW I’m not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 — one of the uncertainties in ’14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).

I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven’t retracted anything.

What I have said is that it’s easier to make the case that expats should have the vote.

I explained in my first post but I’ll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn’t have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.

Now people who are from Scotland but make a living working in various EU countries are going to be directly affected. There are far more jobs available in the EU for EU citizens than there are for non-EU citizens.

On balance, I’m think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. However, if people want to make the case that you should be allowed to vote if you are on the electoral register as well then that is a valid point and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?

ChrisL
Full Member
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland.

You work with loonballs. 😆

I think he’s cornered the market for independence supporters who are also terrified of transgender people.

Try asking them what they think of JK Rowling.

Well that’s in one way a bit of a pity because mostly they’re decent people, but in another way it’s a relief as when they get onto the subject of politics it’s a full on list of grievances and borderline conspiracy theories. It’s not a good look for the cause of Scottish independence.

To be fair, I think Wings did some good work in the run up to the 2014 ref, the wee blue book etc.

But recently he has disappeared down some sort of weird anti SNP, anti trans? black hole. Half his posts are about personal battles he is having with some corrupt organisation or another.

I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?

Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I’m guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?

Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said – its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.

Aye, some of the stuff on there in 2013 was very good indeed, balanced, considered.

Anything but that now, however.

I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven’t retracted anything.

Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:

I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.

I explained in my first post but I’ll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn’t have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.

Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They’d have said Scotland won’t be in the EU and you’ll then have to decide to become “rUKish” rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights. Of course you may have chosen to dismiss that as project fear – but in the absence of any firm proposal on Indy Scot’s future relationship with the EU is you are guessing that you will have the rights you want. Whilst its clear what the SNPs position is, and the EU are likely to be positive about that there is the major issue of the land border with England which post 1st Jan may present a significant obstacle in any negotiations since it would be outside the EU…

poly
Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I’m guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?

Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said – its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.

I work for an all-male company with most of us being middle aged. Everyon’e white, cis, most or all are straight, everyone’s university educated. The 3 Wings Over Scotland fans are all in their late 40s or early 50s.

Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:

You realise it’s possible to see the merit in an argument but on balance decide against it? I know people tend towards absolutes these days but it is possible to see validity in an argument but not agree with the conclusion.

Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They’d have said Scotland won’t be in the EU and you’ll then have to decide to become “rUKish” rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights.

The point is that no one would have been stripped of their UK citizenship if Scotland had voted Yes. Not even Better Together tried to argue that point. Children born in iScotland may not have been eligible for UK citizenship but if you were born in the UK you would have had a UK passport.

No matter the result of the previous referendum Scottish expats would have still been able to live and work in EU countries (until Brexit, of course) so it was entirely correct that they shouldn’t have a vote.

Now there is more of a case that they should have a say but overall I don’t think they should.

BruceWee
Free Member

Scotland is not xenophobic

Correct, we’re far too busy hating slightly different scottish people.

That’s alright because elsewhere in the UK

a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist

A smaller proportion in Scotland. We are not without our weegie bams 🙂 And our government is not xenophobic and racist 🙂

a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist

What’s a “fair proportion”?

5,10,20,30,40% ?

What’s a “fair proportion”?

Dunno, probably about the same percentage that voted Tory in the last election.