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  • Scotland Indyref 2
  • Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    Ironic given that the majority of Scots didn’t vote for Brexit or this shitshow of a Westminster government and having no say so in the matter distresses them too.

    Yes indeed. I didn’t vote for them either. But I (and they) did have a vote.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Of course, if James Dornan self ids as a woman, he’ll still qualify.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    IT’S not that long ago that many folks voting no for independence saw the SNP as a bit loose cannon, instead opting to remain part of the UK, as Westminster was seen as a steady hand on the tiller, experienced, with gravitas and clarity of thinking.

    How’s that working out for y’all?.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    James Dornan forgets to mention that he already announced he’d be standing down back in february, which is what’s triggered the all-woman shortlist, and only announced that he’d changed his mind shortly before the NEC meeting. Puts a pretty different light on it.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Great. Now we need to get the Cherry blocker fixed too.

    Premier Icon falkirk-mark
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    IT’S not that long ago that many folks voting no for independence saw the SNP as a bit loose cannon, instead opting to remain part of the UK, as Westminster was seen as a steady hand on the tiller, experienced, with gravitas and clarity of thinking.

    How’s that working out for y’all?

    3 close family member who voted against Scottish independence would now give it serious consideration mostly owing to the fact there seems to be absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel regarding the whole rotten Westminster government.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    At some point (I imagine after Holyrood elections in May) theres gonna be a big constitutional tussle over when/how sturgeon gets to call another ref

    Including dont knows-
    Yes – 51% (+1)
    No – 42% (-1)
    Don’t Know – 7% (nc)

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Nah. Nicola Sturgeon has basically said that she’ll only hold Indyref2 if she gets a Section 30 order from Westminster. I can’t imagine why the UK Government would grant one, especially if the polling shows a majority in favour of independence. She has also said that constitutional change is off the cards until the effects of Covid-19 have passed. Even with a fair wind, that could easily be another two years before she even considers asking for one.

    This is much more interesting..

    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/pas30/

    If it can be established that a Section 30 order is not required then a referendum could be held much sooner. Of course, that will upset some of the SNP hierarchy, who have become too comfortable in their positions of power.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Can only really see May elections going ahead if covid is under control anyway!

    Weve seen with Brexit that once the Nationalist genies is out of the bottle you cant stuff it back in, Sturgeon will have to deal with that if she tries to hit the brakes on indy- Tho I can see why her asking for section 30 after winninga pro-indy majority in May & then Johnson saying no is attractive to her as it only stokes anti-westminster sentiment further

    And at this point I dont see Johnson making any efforts to try & keep scotland in the union anyway, he just doesnt seem to care

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    Tories need davidson back

    Premier Icon gordimhor
    Full Member

    As an indy supporter I’ll be delighted if that never happens, it’s a prediction for a future Westminster election and I hope Scotland won’t be involved in any more of them.
    The predictions for Holyrood would be more informative.

    Premier Icon longdog
    Free Member

    Shetland are wanting independence again, from Scotland too lol!

    Not sure what I’d vote this time around. Voted no to independence and no to brexit. I’d probably vote no again, but there’s a slight wobble with the way things have been with the tories in power and I do think nicola sturgeon has been pretty good through C19. But at heart I think we’re still better together, but without the tories in power

    Premier Icon gordimhor
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    Breakdown from the survation poll used by election map UK shows this prediction for Holyrood
    Including the regional vote from the same poll it works out around:

    SNP – 70
    Labour – 21
    Conservative – 20
    Green – 10
    Lib Dem – 8

    So pro indy parties win 62% of seats and the SNP win an outright majority.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    From a selfish point of view, My (brexit voting) mum is scottish

    can I get an EU passport if scotland leaves UK & joins EU?

    But id still rather Scotland stayed in the UK, what I really dont like is the millitant rangers sectarian unionist stufff my uncle comes out with, its alienated his own kids

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    But at heart I think we’re still better together, but without the tories in power

    That’s the crux of it though isn’t. As its currently arranged Scotland is powerless to decide who governs – limited devolution not withstanding.

    Ultimately that is what its all about.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Ruth Davidson back? Surely not, she chucked it to spend more time with her son.

    Then took up a place in the house of lords…

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    but without the tories in power

    😆

    I’ve lived 42 years. tories have been in power for 27.5 of them, and counting… That’s a theme that isn’t going to change. You’ll get labour again, but you’ll be back to the tories soon enough. The tories are without a doubt the dominant uk party, by a decent margin. Even if labour get in tory politics still dominate.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    Ruth Davidson is kinda back in the SP. She’s the one currently doing FM questions for the tories.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
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    If only every vote for SNP was assumed to be a vote for independence.

    I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
    Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.

    Premier Icon tpbiker
    Full Member

    But at heart I think we’re still better together, but without the tories in power

    Well yes…and I’d definitely be a ‘no if the Tories weren’t part of the equation. As things stand however I’m 50/50. If Nicola can give us sometjing a bit more concrete than the snp’s approach let time round of ‘have a little faith it’ll all be fine’, then id probably vote yes.

    It would pain me to do so, but I can no longer abide being ruled by that incompetent shower of lying xxxktards from westminster.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Ruth Davidson back? Surely not, she chucked it to spend more time with her son.

    Well, as it turned out it was to spend more time with a lobbying company. But since she had to step down from that role due to the conflict of interest she has more time to spend on parliament.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    If only every vote for SNP was assumed to be a vote for independence.

    Works both ways, I know a few who would vote yes, but won’t vote SNP.

    Premier Icon TheBrick
    Free Member

    As its currently arranged Scotland is powerless to decide who governs

    This is true, but it is also true of many more people in England! In fact if you’re in Scotland your vote probably has proportionally more weight than mine. There is “better” grouping (and a better alternative in Scotland) but please don’t forget that just because the majority of Conservative seats are in England doesn’t mean that there are not lots of people who would rather there not be a Conservative government but a combination of poor opposition and voting system means there is a massively skewed picture.

    Premier Icon yourguitarhero
    Free Member

    If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    since she had to step down from that role due to the conflict of interest she has more time to spend on parliament.

    And on LBC. So much for spending more time with her family.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    yourguitarhero
    Free Member

    If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.

    Me too- FPTP has generated and worsened some absolutely crazy situations over the last few years, culminating in Boris Johnston’s massive majority with 43.6% of the vote, Jeremy Corbyn’s crushing minority with 32%, and the clear majority of votes being cast for left leaning and anti-brexit parties. It’s a huge problem and the more divisive politics gets the worse it is.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Not me. In a PR system, London would have as many seats as Scotland and I don’t believe equal weighting should be given to votes cast in an area where the social and economic requirements are so different.

    Premier Icon gordimhor
    Full Member

    Well for me government should be of the people, by the people, and outward looking.
    So yes to independence, yes to government at the most local level possible, ( are you listening SNP) and yes to EU or EFTA membership. Yes to PR as well for better representation of the whole electorate.

    Premier Icon onehundredthidiot
    Free Member

    Government at the most local level brings it to regional level and some regions are not capable of simply following a plan, possibly because their rosette is not the same colour bas ScotGov.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Full Member

    franksinatra
    Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.

    What is it about being ruled by the large neighbouring country, whose parliament regularly over-rides matters that are in Scotland’s interests, that is so appealing to you?

    Genuine question.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Stockholm syndrome. It’s the only explanation. 😆

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    epicyclo

    What is it about being ruled by the large neighbouring country, whose parliament regularly over-rides matters that are in Scotland’s interests, that is so appealing to you?

    being british I’d guess, a valid stand point and no hard to figure out. It’s more p to you to convince him of the virtues scottishness, condescending questions are of little help in that.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Jockholm syndrome.

    FTFY

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Full Member

    seosamh77
    …condescending questions are of little help in that

    It wasn’t condescending.

    I’ll take it out of its Scotland/England context then.

    If you lived in country A with a large neighbour country B which ruled country A.

    Country B’s parliament regularly over-rode matters that were in country A’s vital interests, would that appeal to you?

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    5 or 6 consecutive polls now showing Indy ahead, including one commissioned by the UK Govt. One of the reasons is the FM being considered to be doing a better job than the PM.

    And now the BBC decide not to show the FMs daily Covid briefings. Does anyone really believe that’s coincidence and that the BBC is not being used to maintain the power of the UK State?

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    would that appeal to you?

    Would depend if I viewed the Country A or Country A+B as the whole. There’s 2 valid view points that are up for debate. Up to you to win the debate.

    Borders are transient, not god given rights. Historical rights aren’t the most important part, what are the benefits going forward are the more interesting and relevant topics.

    Premier Icon piemonster
    Full Member

    It wasn’t condescending.

    I read it as condescending tbh.

    Premier Icon poly
    Free Member

    If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.

    I’m sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out – there is of course no certainty that a PR system would “favour” Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the “We never voted for them” argument. The other obvious way to make “Westminster relevant again in Scotland” would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being “big” issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
    Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.

    I wouldn’t worry. The SNP leadership don’t appear to be in any hurry to push for independence. An ever-growing number of folk in the wider indy movement  (both within and outwith the SNP) are growing tired of them and would rather they’d spent the last two years trying to sort out Indy instead of trying to fight the will of the people of England and their desire for Brexit.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Full Member

    If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.

    I’m sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out – there is of course no certainty that a PR system would “favour” Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the “We never voted for them” argument. The other obvious way to make “Westminster relevant again in Scotland” would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being “big” issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.

    problems with that though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

    Neither regional devolution or replacing FPTP are going to happen.

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