I had a rather depressing conversation today with a colleague who works in the school canteen and I was curious to see what others thought.

New Scottish Government regulations have come in which means that many school canteens have had to alter what they provide. They can still serve ‘lips and arseholes’ sausages but they need to be smaller and only on certain days. They can continue to serve cakes and flapjacks but they’ve been forced to change the mix to reduce fat and sugar and according to my colleague they are now inedible. They can still serve soft drinks but they need to be sugar free and contain fruit juice. The result is those highly flavoured, synthetic drinks loaded with sweeteners and labelled ‘contains fruit juice and sweeteners’. All of it is still pre-prepared garbage that comes in a Brake Bros truck but it’s pre-prepared garbage carefully formulated to meet very specific government nutritional requirements.

One of the stated aims of this is to educate pupils about healthy eating choices which is laudable but laughable given that what they’re doing is reverse engineering cheap shite to make it meet set criteria rather than preparing healthy meals from good ingredients.

Another aim is to make pupils diets healthier, again laudable but the reality is that many schools only have 40% capacity in their canteens and a smaller percentage again choose to eat there so what proportion of children will they actually hit with this? Even fewer once they taste the new cakes I think.

It’s a difficult nut to crack this, as many pupils are free to leave school grounds and buy whatever they like but I can’t help but feel that this is yet another bit of ill conceived Scottish Government sticking plaster that will let them say ‘we did X,Y and Z for the young people’ whilst creating a huge amount of work for some people and ultimately having very little effect.

Come back Jamie Oliver, all is forgiven.

Rant over. 🙂

Ours were minging, although we used to be able to choose one of two stations in the canteen. Either “traditional” or “fast food” where we could basically pick a burger and chips every day for a full year of school if we chose to. A bit mental when you think of it now. This was the early 2000s

A bit mental when you think of it now. This was the early 2000s

It’s like so much else in education, tinkered about with for decades and still crap.

Mrs Pondo’s school outsourced their food providers long ago, they serve pure low-quality shite.

The school dinners I got in the 90’s were atrocious – I seem to remember every day was beige processed food with heehaw nutrients.

I’d be mandating that schools were not allowed to use brakes et al for pre prepared food, but had to cook on site from actual ingredients every day.

I’d be mandating that schools were not allowed to use brakes et al for pre prepared food, but had to cook on site from actual ingredients every day.

I’m all for that and so was my colleague but there’s a massive amount of stuff that would need to change for that to happen and even more that would need to change for it to have a really big impact.

My kid’s school dinners are poor – two different schools (8 and 11).

The youngest (8) would have a choice of things like really bready pizza, soggy fish fingers and so on if he ate at school – so he doesn’t. I really don’t get it though. There are tonnes of really easy, really cheap meals that they could cook if they really wanted to if, you know, they actually cooked as opposed to just heat things up.

Having said that, I’ve watched the average primary school kid eat at lunchtime and I can’t imagine the state of the place if they served chilli/daal/tomato pasta/rice dishes and the like as opposed to grey food that a fork can go in easily followed by a cheap biscuit or cake.

I’m with you Spin, it’s thoroughly depressing. Town is rammed with kids eating shite as well. God knows how we address this, parents have to take some responsibility, no one seems to give a ****.

When I were a lad we had proper dinners like meat and potato pie and cabbage. Spotted Dick for afters.

as slowoldman ours were great. proper food cooked fresh daily 12p per day for 2 courses more if on last sittings fill your boots till kicked out. School i later taught in food was shite i only ever ate in there on training days which were excellent after new chef started, he did proper meals for kids for a while but the ingrates never wanted proper food. so pizzas chips etc. Eldest now works in a school kitchen i hope theirs is decent stuff!

They can still serve soft drinks but they need to be sugar free and contain fruit juice. The result is those highly flavoured, synthetic drinks loaded with sweeteners and labelled ‘contains fruit juice and sweeteners’.

If the alternative is “those highly flavoured, synthetic drinks loaded with sugar” then this at least is a massive step in the right direction.

Unless you’re the sort to whine about “chemicals” and “processed” and aspartame, in which case you need to ask your children to teach you some science.

Spin, don’t know if this is another change or a different council catching up – but ours seems to have had these policies for a while (certainly the primary school did for the last 10+ yrs). It’s well-meaning but poorly executed – only to be expected when you give people some strict rules and a set budget rather than actually get them to understand and deliver the essence of the objective. I wouldn’t be surprised if the suppliers have jumped on it with ready-made “school rule compliant food packages”.

Pre-covid the local chippy, Chinese and burger van did a roaring trade and special offers for school kids. They aren’t letting them out for lunch now, but I’m not sure how the dining habits/facilities have adapted.

I don’t think its actually any worse than when I was at school in the 80/90s: Chips, Cheese and Salad Cream, followed by a large chunk of some sickly sweet tray bake washed down with full fat coke was the stable diet of probably 70% of those who ate school dinners (who were probably 70% on free school meals). Probably the same number had a packed lunch, and then the same number again would go to the chippy for a roll and fritter with a pickle (pickled onion for those not familiar with a glasgow chippy)!

I’m with you Spin, it’s thoroughly depressing. Town is rammed with kids eating shite as well. God knows how we address this, parents have to take some responsibility, no one seems to give a ****.

there clearly is an element of parental responsibility – but there is an element of bullying / peer pressure involved too. Just like being the kid who doesn’t have the right trainers, being the kids who eats the healthy lunch is not cool. If prices/portions/quality are crap I don’t blame parents if they say – go out and get something to eat instead.

Unless you’re the sort to whine about “chemicals” and “processed” and aspartame, in which case you need to ask your children to teach you some science.

Loving your work here Cougar. Zoom in on one short bit of a long post. Identify possible criticism of it. Make assumptions about poster. Make underhanded comment on their level of education.

Having these kind of drinks in school is another example of the reverse engineering of a highly processed product to make it appear healthy that is at the core of these changes. I never mentioned chemicals etc, you did. If we want to use school meals to educate pupils about healthy eating why not just offer water, milk or fruit juice rather than a product that mimics sugary soft drinks?

Spin, don’t know if this is another change or a different council catching up – but ours seems to have had these policies for a while (certainly the primary school did for the last 10+ yrs).

There have been regulations for a long time but these are new changes announced last year and being implemented now.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/healthy-eating-schools-guidance-2020/pages/1/

I wouldn’t be surprised if the suppliers have jumped on it with ready-made “school rule compliant food packages”.

That’s exactly what happens, the drinks bottles we get are labelled something like ‘school meal compliant’.

there clearly is an element of parental responsibility – but there is an element of bullying / peer pressure involved too.

I despair of there being any change in this because it would require huge change both in schools and wider society.

@spin – what a shit show. It’s all about short term priorities.

I’m a fan of Michael Pollan’s mantra to “Eat food, not too much, mostly plants”
“Don’t eat anything your great grandmother wouldn’t recognise as food”

This chart is for the US, showing how as a proportion of household spend food has dropped over the decades. I’m sure it applies to most western countries. Increased pressure is on people to spend on consumer goods exclusive of food. Increased pressure for two incomes. Less time for food preparation. More processed foods.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/99703/november20_finding_zeballos_fig01-01_450px.png?v=2801

Many state schools have outsourced their catering and many do not even have the facilities to cook on site. It is often run for profit and the portions and often too small for a growing teenager. Meanwhile I am in the private sector and the food is fantastic and I eat there every day. Them and Us.

I was at a private school in the 80’s and the food was shite (I’ll never forget mashed potato with hard lumps in it), it’s even worse when you’re boarding and eating 3 meals a day there. I tried to organise a boycott in protest once but just ended up suspended for a week.

There are tonnes of really easy, really cheap meals that they could cook if they really wanted to if, you know, they actually cooked as opposed to just heat things up.

Sure, but you still need staff to do the prep. I suspect buying in and heating up is cheaper overall.

I have to say that the school dinners my daughter gets are excellent. She’s T1 Diabetic, so I get to see the menus.

Rolling three week menu with two different choices per day, one of which is vegetarian.

The menu changes between summer and winter.

All carb scored by the local NHS dietician and with standardized portion sizes. Common menu across all council controlled schools in the borough.

https://www.bury.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=13898

She’s at High School from September where I suspect things will be a little more chaotic.

The first half of my secondary school life was all this crap, we could literally eat pizza at break time and chicken nuggets at lunch

Then the (very good) headteacher decided to bring everything in house, hired a[n actual] chef, who trained up the canteen staff on how to prepare actual food, and he started mass creating proper meals, every single day – which at first all of the/us kids were annoyed at because we liked the crap fast food, but within a few days it became apparent to all of us that proper food tastes great

Our girls go to a school with a chef (similar to what @flannol described ^^^). He sources local ingredients wherever possible and the food is really, really good – if there is any left over it gets sold to staff and it is snapped up. They have several outlets (from traditional British food to European and Asian as well as baguette and hot potato stands and have a constantly changing and varied menu). It’s such a pity that our girls (yr 7) have not had an opportunity to experience it properly because they have had to severely restrict menus and access because of Covid.

It’s a world away from my experiences of school food as a kid and does so much to promote both healthy eating and experimenting with a wide range of meals.

Oh, the 80s, the halcyon days of grey, overcooked liver, and lumpy mash.

I’d have given my right arm for a slice of pizza 😆

Our daughter’s primary do fresh cooked food, and apparently it’s very nice.
We insist she has the main meal at least 3 times a week, and then she can have pizza or a panini on the other days, though these are still properly prepared, not pre-packaged & reheated.

Junior school brings back memories of “meat pie” served from a tray with chips and beans.
Occasionally chicken fricassee with sweetcorn in it, served with fried bread.

Secondary school , used to take sandwiches , crisps, snack bar etc,
Thursday was a lunchtime bike ride down to the chippy about a mile away for battered fish cake and chips for the bargain price of 50p.

Junior school brings back memories of “meat pie” served from a tray with chips and beans.

We used to get “meat and potato pie”. It was boiled potatoes, a few bits of chewy mince, and a thin gravy, with a square of pastry placed on top. Mmmm.

Aspartame, just too sweet and false tasting to my old tongue.

There seems to be a real fear of making things taste less sweet but that’s a whole other debate.

Loving your work here Cougar. Zoom in on one short bit of a long post. Identify possible criticism of it. Make assumptions about poster. Make underhanded comment on their level of education.

I don’t know anything about school dinners, I used to take sandwiches. But I do know a bit about science, so that’s what I commented on.

Having these kind of drinks in school is another example of the reverse engineering of a highly processed product to make it appear healthy that is at the core of these changes.

But it is healthier, considerably more so than full-fat pop. And kids will likely choose to drink pop over a nice cup of tea so is it not good to wean them off sugar-loaded drinks early?

I never mentioned chemicals etc, you did. If we want to use school meals to educate pupils about healthy eating why not just offer water, milk or fruit juice rather than a product that mimics sugary soft drinks?

Because kids want to drink sugary soft drinks.

Kids won’t want to drink water (and is presumably freely available anyway), this isn’t Victorian Britain; milk isn’t overly thirst-quenching; and ‘fruit juice’ in a school will be lowest common denominator crap from concentrate (and ‘processed,’ ZOMG, won’t someone think of the children?! Oh), almost certainly still laden in sugar and almost certainly worse for them than sugar-free sodas.

Plus, budget. In most schools there ain’t none.

Our 9yr old has been having school dinners since he started juniors. Prior to the whole Covid saga they were pretty good, 3 week rolling menu with a fair bit of variety and a couple of options per day.

Since they have gone back they now eat in their classrooms to preserve their bubble. They get 1 choice, if they don’t like it they can have a cheese sandwich. The main meals are usually Pizza & Chips, Fish Fingers & potato cubes (chips then), Panini & chips etc etc. They are not being served any vegetables at all and portion sizes are puny to the point of him coming home hungry every day. I’ve looked into it and none of the meals actually meet the minimum standards for school meals as set out by the govt. I have written an e-mail to the chair of governors and head but got no reply as yet.

But I do know a bit about science, so that’s what I commented on.

You weren’t commenting on the science you were making assumptions about my knowledge of science and having a dig based on those assumptions.

So instead of trying to justify yourself why not just apologise for leaping to conclusions and making snarky comments?

I wasn’t intending to have a dig and if that’s what you thought then yes, I apologise. Text is tricky and my typing style can be abrupt.

Your subsequent comments bear out my initial reaction though. “Sugar free pop = bad, fruit juice = good” is bogus.

Your subsequent comments bear out my initial reaction though. “Sugar free pop = bad, fruit juice = good” is bogus.

Nope that wasn’t my point at all. My point was that one of the aims of these changes is to educate pupils on healthy diet and that providing sugar free products that mimic sugary products was not the way to do that.

However…Apology accepted Captain Needa… 🙂

In the interests of cost cutting, our local authority ended the contract with the local butcher and the meat came from a cash n carry. Mince had to be drained of fat before the school cook could use it. They also hit the main news headlines for importing chicken from Thailand.
I understand that childhood obesity is driving this policy and it’s not always easy getting kids to eat healthily. But the school menus now are a half-arsed attempt and could have done much better.