This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

So why isn’t walkers eroding a path there an issue then?

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

Once again, please explain to me this specialness and importance and while you’re at it, explain why these definitions should override the opinions of others whose usage of the landscape does not agree with them.

These people will get lost up there and will end up riding all over the most fragile elements of the ecosystem

Maybe you should read the article and look at the pics before writing such moronic comments. The path is well defined, I went up in dense mist and only got a wee bit lost 🙂

I only rode over a few of these before finding the path again.

So to summarise; the article was responsibly written, there are already a great many articles and books that have been written about this area, we should stick to the paths and/or ride responsibly. Have I missed anything? Get a fat bike maybe?

And I wouldn’t worry about folk south of the border coming up and riding roughshod over our precious hills. Most of them start to panic at the thought of the midgies, never mind the cold, the wet and the fact that its further away than Spain or Portugal.

Trailmonkey – there was a very good link given earlier by Geoff that descibes the special significance of the plateau.

some people need to actually read the article!

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

if this is the case then why are thousands of walkers allowed to walk all over it every year?
as said above who’s more likely to stray from the path, walkers or bikers?

there’s some **** high dandy horses around 🙄

there was a very good link given earlier by Geoff that descibes the special significance of the plateau.

❓

I found a link from geoffj that was a list of flora and fauna, is that it ? If so, it fails to specify any quantifiable significance. It merely lists a bunch of stuff that scientists have promoted to the point whereby they have some inhererrent importance that we should all accept without question. I fail to see why this interpretation on the significance of the landscape should over ride all others.

Try googling the AHD for an enlightening perspective on the uses of heritage resources.

Mark – do you really think its responsible to promote riding on the MacDui plateau in a national magazine

Yes I do. I think we did it responsibly. That’s good enough for me. You don’t agree. That’s fine too. I expect that fact annoys you a lot more than it does me.

Mark – it don’t annoy me. Its clear to me from a series of discussions on here and in real life that this is not a clear cut issue by any means. Folk who understand the issues and whos view I respect disagree with me.

I think debating it is healthy and will help raise awareness of the issues which can only be good. I hope your promotion of riding on the plateau does not lead to issues but I fear it will

Time will tell.

Trailmonkey – do you really not understand how special it is? Are you that hard of thinking? Do you really think your right to roam means you can do what you want when you want without considering anything? 🙄

no need for insults tj, completely unwarranted, just because i don’t agree with your point. i’m not even interested in a right to roam, merely interested in questioning heritage interpretation.

the irony is that i’m the one who is actually bothering to think rather than just blindly accepting the importance of one set of values over another.

Trailmonkey – do you really not understand how special it is? Are you that hard of thinking? Do you really think your right to roam means you can do what you want when you want without considering anything?

He’s citing an idea which draws on poststructrualist theory to deconstruct hegemonic scientific and political discourses to demonstrate the power relations embedded within conservation designation and practice – i think he gets your perspective. Do you get his?

These fatbikes which are all the rage now are even better, allowing me to get off the beaten track and crush rare plants, ptarmigan eggs and baby capercaillies willy nilly.

😮

What is a Capercaillie? Is it like a sort of hedgehoggy thing?

Is it related to a Haggis?

I don’t know about these sort of things, I’m sorry. 😳

I understand trailmonkeys point and in some cases he clearly is right.

However this is the wrong case to make his point the one set of values over another case is really clear on this one unlike in some areas.

That response shows you don’t get it.

However this is the wrong case to make his point the one set of values over another case is really clear on this one unlike in some areas

because you say so ? because scientists say so ? because ?

the ahd is strong in this one

*feel free to insult some more.*

again

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

if this is the case then why are thousands of walkers allowed to walk all over it every year?

Me and 10 mates are planning to go next weekend.

What times does the uplift run?

Is 8″ enough travel?

What’s the best way to cook Capercaillie eggs? Gas or solid fuel?

Thanks!

druidh – Member
> TandemJeremy – Member
> This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

And yet TJ, I can look to the bookshelf on my left and see at least seven guide-books aimed at walkers, all promoting access to the same paths. Do you have none?

What is a Capercaillie? Is it like a sort of hedgehoggy thing?

Is it related to a Haggis?

I don’t know about these sort of things, I’m sorry.

Not related at all although Capercaillie breast stuffed with organic wild haggis makes a fab combination

I do understand trailmonkeys point. Its obvious. In some cases he clearly is right.

However he fails to understand why the Ben MacDui plateau is different. Its not just any old SSSI. Its nothing special from a mountainbiking point of view -so in that way its value is low, its very special from a conservationist point of view so in that way its value is high.

Druidh /. pastcaring – thats a whole nother debate I ain’t getting into. MY opinion is that in places like this bikes cause disproportionate damage far greater than any walker. No proof, not even any evidence bar my observation. But because I believe bikes cause significant damage thats why I believe that its hard to make a case that riding bikes there is responsible and certainly that publicising it is irresponsible.

Al this is simply my opinion based on what I know and see. Other opinions are available and people such as Druidh whos opinion I respect have one that differs from mine

A rather lovely kind of grouse:

with a turkey in the backgound 🙂

Really

I mean the ratio of walkers/climber scratching there way around heavily out numbers bicycles.

Lets not mention the amount of poo that is left behind by the red sock brigade.

So what are we saying close the Cairngorms off and just watch videos about them.

Bunch of piss

I fully understand the fragile environment up there I have worked in outdoor education for 10 years but I will continue to ride my bicycle responsibly on the plateau as long as others enjoy the Cairngorms wilderness on foot or any other form of transport ( landrover, stalkers)

Lets not talk about the hundreds of cairns that have been made by walkers wandering off the path and picking up part of the fragile landscape and piling them next to the path on the way to Ben Macdui.

Thanks
Andy

Environmental pressure is the thin edge of the wedge to wind back the right to roam in Scotland.

Its not the responsible people I have issue with – its the thought of people like SimonFBarnes and his bogtrotters that makes me cringe

He believes that bikes cause no erosion, that riding alongside built paths is OK when the armoured path is inconvenient to ride and that he should be able to lead large groups of people anywhere anytime.

too many folk with that attitude and significant damage will be done. Its not the few responsible riders that I worry about – its the risk of attracting large numbers of irresponsible folk.

Edit – and I see “skilful and experienced” riders all the time riding in ways that cause needless erosion – ring round puddles and water bars, skidding to a halt.

Name me another mountain in the uk that has it own dedicated “poo project” because the amount of shit left on the hill?

Sorry to bang on about Jobbies.

Sanny’s article didn’t smack of being irresponsible more inspirational, get you bicycles out of the sanitised loops tucked away in forests around the UK.

Brought to you by Leffe
thanks Andy

Its not the responsible people I have issue with – its the thought of people like SimonFBarnes and his bogtrotters that makes me cringe

Come on man; how many people blethering on on this thread drive cars, take flights, use plastic baygs, etc etc etc??

Not to mention riding bikes made from materials the extraction/refinement/production of which is environmentally damaging?

NIMBYism.

‘Ooh please don’t come and damage my favourite environment even though I contribute to the damage of the environment of other places’.

Pfft…

Me and my stepdad got attacked by an large, enraged, male, nest-guarding Capercaillie up Sutherland way when I was a lad. He had to beat it off with a stick after it went for his eyes, from the vantage point of his shoulders!

Feel free to fry their eggs on a hot griddle.

James-b

Please don’t assume that because we enjoyed the descents that we were traveling at warp speed and skidding all the way down the trail. The area is most definitely not a giant trail centre and anyone who treats it as such may be in for a very rude awakening. Phone coverage is virtually non existent and you are a long way from help and civilization if you come a cropper. As with any trip into the mountains, careful planning, knowing you limits and being aware of the hazards you may face are key. Oh and if you manage an average of less than 3 milesan hour, the chances are you aren’t riding Steve Peat style on the descents!

It’s a boid? And here’s me thinking it was some strange British egg-laying mammal….

I am disappoint. 🙁

Why can’t we have something like that over here?

Racism. That’s why.

Probably.

Surroundedbyzulus – twice in one thread I’m accused of being moronic. Disappointed by that. I mus be losing my touch. Once you’ve actually read the article, perhaps you may wish to reflect on how you have garnered knowledge of the Cairngorms. You may have one of the many walking and climbing guidebooks that are published for the area or have read about it in a magazine or online. I would suggest that the article is but a drop in the ocean compared to what is already out there in print and online. Perhaps you have walked there with friends who have shared their knowledge of the area. At any point, did you think as a walker about the damage you have helped contribute to? Have you chosen to chastise yourself or the likes of Cameron McNeish and Chris Townsend. Substitute walker for biker in your last post – can you not just as easily ( or perhaps even more so) come to the conclusion that walkers are irresponsible and that there is no place to promote walking in the hills either? I find the notion that walkers are inherently more responsible and have greater mountain craft than bikers to often be at odds with reality. How often do you see folk in trainers and t shirts going up munros, plastic shopping bag in hand. While I may be concerned for their well being, I’m not going to tell them they shouldn’t be there. The hills are there for all to enjoy…… responsibly.

If you disagree, that’s fine but please try to resist calling me moronic for a third time. Reasoned discourse is great, name calling less so.

Mighty night.

Sanny – brought to you by the number 12 and Bier Halle 2 for 1 pizza …..mmm!

Sanny – brought to you by the number 12 and Bier Halle 2 for 1 pizza

That is a qualitage sign-off.

In fact, it’s Elfinapproved. 😀

Perfectly OK to build a car park and railway to the top of said plateau, not to mention a cafe on the very top then.

old_mtber – Member

Perfectly OK to build a car park and railway to the top of said plateau, not to mention a cafe on the very top then.

The railway is not to the top, a lot of folk objected to it, you are not allowed to ride up in the railway and then wonder off onto the plateau

http://www.cairngormmountain.co.uk/mountain-access-and-conservation

a cracking article and a great response Sanny 😆

doug –

Did Sanny not also write an article a few months ago where he strongly criticised some guy for riding off the path on Ben Lomond?

that was on the club email methinks 😆

bring on more summer adventures into our lovely remote hills – yippeee 😀

there’s a lot of defense being built around ‘well walkers publish guide books so I can publish mountain bike articles..’

great… how mature.. two wrongs don’t make a right and all that..

It’s a bit like those stories where a houseparty is advertised on facebook and bastards from miles around turn up and wreck the joint.. and consequently I’m also disappointed by some of the reactions to this issue displayed on this thread.. It’s nice to imagine that all people that ride bicycles off-road are automatically caring and responsible guardians of the countryside.. but it’s hopelessly naive..

I understand that only a very few bastards will make the journey to the plateau.. maybe even none.. and that only a handful of well meaning enthusiasts will rise to the challenge.. out of that handful of enthusiasts I would expect less than half to truly understand the reponsibility..
so why encourage it in the pages of a loved and respected magazine..?
just because we feel that we can really doesn’t mean that we should..

And that’s why I’m thoroughly disappointed by this.. as a lover of the great outdoors and our wonderful planets stunning hidden secrets.. and nurturing a streak of conservationism fuelled by mountain biking.. I had unwisely assumed that Singletrack and it’s contributors would have a more admirable respect for the environment than this..

I understand the arguments and excuses for publishing the article.. but wouldn’t it have been far more caring to just print something else about somewhere else..?

bastards

EDIT: rant over.. great debate.. triumph over adversity hopefully

I do understand trailmonkeys point

Excellent, it’s important that people start questioning scientific/academic hegemony in resource management.

However he fails to understand why the Ben MacDui plateau is different……………………..its very special from a conservationist point of view

Oh, so you clearly have no idea what i’m trying to say at all do you ?

In an earlier post, you accused me of being hard of thinking. Please allow me to avert the irony in your statement by drawing your attention to a case in point that might allow your own ease of thought.

In Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park, there is a cave that contains ancient paintings produced by aboriginal Australians. Conventional, scientific and archaeolgical interpretation of the site led to access to the paintings being restricted with a viewing platform being installed and contact with the paintings strictly prohibited. This ‘important’ artefact had been successfully conserved. Only one problem. In conserving it, the scientific/archealogical community had completely negated its meaning to the local community who’s practice meant that the paintings should, over time, be reworked – in essence destroying what was there.
The point here is that you can’t turn the whole world into a museum into which the inclusion and usage of artefacts is dictated by conservation professionals, because in doing so, all the exhibits become meaningless to those outside of the academic discourse.Furthermore the discourse, overtime, attains a weight of credibility that as we are seeing here, leads people to accept its hegemony without question and adopt the mantra- its important because its important to academic research, not because it fulfills any meaningful role in peoples lives.

It’s not as you say a case of one set of values against another. In order to reach that parity, you first have to remove the over bearing influence of the AHD which is so inherent in both consevation mangement and lay conservation that all opposition to it is automatically disregarded, as is so clearly being demonstrated on this thread.

TandemJeremy – Member
I do understand trailmonkeys point. Its obvious. In some cases he clearly is right.

However he fails to understand why the Ben MacDui plateau is different. Its not just any old SSSI. Its nothing special from a mountainbiking point of view -so in that way its value is low, its very special from a conservationist point of view so in that way its value is high.

Druidh /. pastcaring – thats a whole nother debate I ain’t getting into. MY opinion is that in places like this bikes cause disproportionate damage far greater than any walker. No proof, not even any evidence bar my observation. But because I believe bikes cause significant damage thats why I believe that its hard to make a case that riding bikes there is responsible and certainly that publicising it is irresponsible.

Al this is simply my opinion based on what I know and see. Other opinions are available and people such as Druidh whos opinion I respect have one that differs from mine

You really are a numpty TJ. On the one hand you use scientific discourse to designate the Cairngorm plateau as internationally significant and therefore at risk. On the other hand you try to support your argument for banishing mountain bikers from the mountain with your opinion and observation – the opposite of scientific. You can’t privilege science in half your argument and and then use your own belief in the other half. ‘Other opinions are available’ – yep they are. And you seem to deny both those views based on science and those based on lay opinion, despite mobilising both of those value systems in your argument.

Moreover, you say you’ve observed mountain bikers causing erosion in sensitive ecological landscapes. My question is what where you doing while observing them? Presumably not riding a bike as you’ve clearly stated riding a bike in these habitats is highly irresponsible.