stoffel – Member

Sorry, still does not compare.
The OP had issues with his drivetrain, not a loose bottle cage.

All he needed and asked for was a 4mm alen key. Not a chain tool. I don’t know why this is so difficult for some people; it’s simple good customer service. What is wrong twith that?[/quote]

I don’t think many/any disagree on the OP’s experience.

The thread has given rise to a broader discussion around his issue. What is wrong with that?

I’d imagine you’re not.

We’re actually extremely successful at what we do, and as it’s a non-profit social enterprise, we’re not comparable to CS or any other large corporate profit-making chain. We co-ordinate with other organisations here and abroad. We help people with disabilities gain mobility through cycling. We help young people becometrained in cycle maintainence etc. We work with TFL/The Mayor’s Office, the police and various cycling groups. We probably didrectly and indirectly asist as many if not more people withcycling, than CS does. And in my opinion, we do it in a more positie, ethical and sustainable manner. CS is just a bike shop chain. We’re a lot more than that.

One act from one member of staff doesn’t reflect the whole company.

Inmy own experience, and that of many others, it appears to be refelctive of CS as a whole, sadly.

The thread has given rise to a broader discussion around his issue. What is wrong with that?

Nothing. It’s a good discussion.

We’re actually extremely successful at what we do, and as it’s a non-profit social enterprise, we’re not comparable to CS or any other large corporate profit-making chain. We co-ordinate with other organisations here and abroad. We help people with disabilities gain mobility through cycling. We help young people becometrained in cycle maintainence etc. We work with TFL/The Mayor’s Office, the police and various cycling groups. We probably didrectly and indirectly asist as many if not more people withcycling, than CS does. And in my opinion, we do it in a more positie, ethical and sustainable manner. CS is just a bike shop chain. We’re a lot more than that.

Jesus wept. It gets better.

You can do everything you like all day long if you don’t have to make a profit.

You can do everything you like all day long if you don’t have to make a profit.

I don’t think you understand how an organisation like ours works. We still need to make enough to cover costs, and to be able to invest in our future. So, the need to make money is just as important. The only difference is where the money goes; with CS I imagine a chunk of profits goes in dividends to shareholders of the parent company. Our ‘profits’ go into constantly improving what we do. Which is why we’re diffrent to CS. But if we can operate a successful customer service based model, i can’t see why CS can’t. That’s my point; lending customers a few basic, cheap and readily replaceable tols, doesn’t negatively impact on the ability to run a successful business, in fact quite the opposite.

Oh I understand fine and well. I lent tools out for 4 years in my busy shop and can echo comments on here from people like Al and Ben.

I am pretty sure, you don’t understand the position CS are in.

But thanks for your expert insights nonetheless.

In a chain shop I worked in many years ago we had a regular customer who started out by asking to borrow a pump & Allen keys etc. It escalated one day when a part time member of staff lent the tools so he effectively stipped and serviced his bike on the shop floor. Where does good customer service become having the piss taken out of you?

Who do you work for stoffel, out of curiosity?

Cycle surgery have in my opinion always been a more consistent, nicer and more knowledgeable shopping experience than a lot of their competitors, all the way back to that shop in Holloway.

A shame if that’s changed, though can’t see much support for that view on here.

Oh I understand fine and well

I seriously doubt it. You have an angle, and want to prmote that. Your response said it all.

I am pretty sure, you don’t understand the position CS are in.

Having winessed their transition from indy LBS to smal chain, then the takeover by SnR, as wel as knowing many members of CS staff over the years, I think I have a pretty good understanding, probably more than most folk on here in fact. Have you ever met the original founders/owners? Did you ever use the original shops?

Who do you work for stoffel, out of curiosity?

Online, I represent only myself, and not the organisation I work for.

Promote an angle? I have no need to promote any angle.

I just wanted to make sure your ‘angle’, which is fairly obtuse, wasn’t left unchecked.

I’ve worked at a number of stores for Evans and Cycle Surgery as a workshop manager, as well as a store manager and workshop manager for a number of LBS

At Evans and CS I would never lend tools out of the workshops; because it was hard enough to get tools to fit out the workshop in the first place, but I’d always try to help a customer in need.

“No, I can’t lend you tools, but Yes I will help you” – which normally got the issue resolved in a few minutes.

I’ve walked into stores where tools have been lent and customers appear to be taking their bike apart on the shop floor just next to the front door!

Sorry, but I learned from experience not to lend out tools, having had customers break tools, leave tools in the road (!) outside the store, leave tools in random places inside the store, or actually steal tools and never come back to the store.

Nothing worse for any mechanic to come into the workshop after their day off and find tools missing off their workbench, and then spend 1/2 hour roaming the store looking for the missing items, at some stores it was so badly controlled (by store manager) that the mechanics would strip their benches each night and lock their tools in a secure box

At some of the chain stores we provided a basic selection of tools which the shop staff were allowed to use or lend, and there was always a track pump for customers to do by the front door.

Bear in mind the stores stocked a full range of affordable tools for retail.

I would never expect to walk into a car garage and ask the mechanic to “borrow” some tools, the only thing I would expect is abuse.

I’ve never understood why workshops in bicycle shops should be any different – we need those tools to do our jobs – if the shop itself wants to hold a pool of basic tools then there is no problem.

I can guarantee every time I have lent a tool like a chain breaker or particular size allen key, 5 minutes later either myself or one of my mechanics has needed that same tool, its happened too many times

Good customer service is assisting customers in genuine need, not providing room for ‘customers’ to take liberties

Online, I represent only myself, and not the organisation I work for.

I suggest you have an angle, and want to promote it.
Maybe you’re not prepared to divulge the name of it so others can make a balanced judgement.

There’s only one ‘not for profit’ bike shop chain I can think of…

They’re a hugely succesful, long established, multi million pound turnover business that employs hundreds and gets thousands of people on bikes, and has thousands of loyal, happy customers.

One act from one member of staff doesn’t reflect the whole company.

‘noted and agreed’

Good customer service is assisting customers in genuine need, not providing room for ‘customers’ to take liberties

And in this particular case, the OP was in genuine need, and in no way ‘taking liberties’.

I’ve never understood why workshops in bicycle shops should be any different

You’ve wored for CCycle Surgery and Evans. Their customer service model is different to other bike shops. Both companies started off as small local bike shops, who would gladly lend a basic cheap tool to help somoene out, as they were run by people who loved cycling and understood that sometimes, it’s just good karma to help another person out, even if it’s for no reward. It’s a shame that ethos has been ditched, in favour of one which focusses on profit rahter than peple.

Maybe you’re not prepared to divulge the name of it so others can make a balanced judgement.

‘Balanced judgement’? On here? Are you mad? 😆

your part quoting to suit your argument though.

CCycle Surgery and Evans. Their customer service model is different to other bike shops. Both companies started off as small local bike shops, who would gladly lend a basic cheap tool to help somoene out, as they were run by people who loved cycling and understood that sometimes, it’s just good karma to help another person out, even if it’s for no reward. It’s a shame that ethos has been ditched, in favour of one which focusses on profit rahter than peple.

Business type changes as do your strengths and weaknesses as you grow but ‘profits over people’ as an ethos? That’s just the usual big-business stereotypes. This isn’t Global Mining For Energy Inc.
James @ Evans – who has also worked in a small local shop where I lent tools. Easy, when it was my call.

@stoffel

my comment about:

“I’ve never understood why workshops in bicycle shops should be any different”

rings true whether its a multi-chain store owned by investment banker (i.e Evans Cycles with Active LLP or Cycle Surgery with LGV) or a LBS

neither want to be in a position when they are providing “free” services to customers that any other retail business would be charging appropriate money for?

If they stock tools, they would like to sell some of these tools to customers.

If they employ mechanically minded staff with qualifications and experience, they would like to sell their services to customers.

Its not a corporate conspiracy but basic business practise!

The workshop is certainly not free to operate, it has its own operating costs including a partial share of shop rent, rates, utilities, payroll, tooling and training.

I’ve worked in the bike industry for years (working retail, distribution and as the owner of a bike manufacturing company), and something I have noticed in these years is that cycling has always attracted a different customer, to other retailers, who perhaps expects that others should always help out for free?

I have never found this in retailers selling white goods, electronics, etc. Services are always charged for, and customers pay for assistance.

Bicycle shops cannot be expected to provide free services, whether its staff time or tooling, there are many pressures effecting modern retailers including rent, rates and payroll, none of these are free to the business operator.

The problem with expecting free services is that is has a real drag on the profitability of a business, and over time excess abuse of goodwill whilst operating on slim margins, can put a business into administration

Of course there is always give and take in customer relationships, but its surprising the number of times I have helped out “customers” who have never purchased, and will not purchase anything from the stores I have worked in – this is called taking a liberty because these “customers” are just a bleed on the store resources whereas genuine customers willing to pay for good service keep the store operating

Like I said above, I think that’s because bike shops are often seen more as clubs than real businesses.

Which can be a very good thing sometimes, but does mean that sometimes asking for money can be seen as crass commercialism.

@bencooper

its a valid point that you make about “bicycle clubs”, as long as this cost is being offset by another part of the business.

I know this first hand from retailers who are successfully making the transition as retail undergoes a dramatic transition, due to rising costs, ever decreasing margins, the introduction of the internet channel with an off-street warehouse, etc.

my last employer (as workshop manager) Sigma Sport was a great model of a retailer who has found a niche and operates a successful workshop reception undertaking complimentary services for regular customers, whilst upstairs they have a fully featured repair workshop operating scheduled servicing.

They also do a huge volume of retail sales of bikes, clothing and accessories which can be used for this “costs offset” with the mindset that you are building a community / club environment.

Esher, your penultimate post was spot on. I can’t think of any other retail environment where so many customers expect so much for so little. So many people seem to think they not only deserve a discount just for making a purchase, but also that small jobs are done free.

“How much? To fix a puncture? “
Yes. That much. Or you can do it yourself.

And then, to compound the problem, as heard in my LBS recently, “Thanks for your advice. That’s going to help me when I order it online”. ****.

Esher, your penultimate post was spot on. I can’t think of any other retail environment where so many customers expect so much for so little. So many people seem to think they not only deserve a discount just for making a purchase, but also that small jobs are done free.

“How much? To fix a puncture? “
Yes. That much. Or you can do it yourself.

And then, to compound the problem, as heard in my LBS recently, “Thanks for your advice. That’s going to help me when I order it online”. ****.

@captainflasheart

Its the old adage of customers knowing ‘the price of everything, the value of nothing’….