This amused me. I hope it’s not a rant. For luxury items people can charge what they like. If people don’t like the price they don’t need to buy it

Saracen and Genesis work out of the same office in Milton keynes? I wonder of the Gensis guys had a bet that they could get 50% more for the same frame

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bike/mantle-fs

Genesis £1500

https://www.saracen.co.uk/bike/zenith-carbon-x-frameset

Saracen £1000

The angles are different but the brands build with different length forks

Or did I miss something

different carbon specified in the lay up. Not sure it’s worth £500 but I expect there’s a number of minor quality differences in an attempt to justify a premium.

£500 seatpost.

Still a bargain compared to that etap dropper.

Or did I miss something

The fact that they’re not the same?

Very Similar but not the same like non-identical twins.
Differences I can see, different steerer tube and to tube intersection,
where the seat tube, seatstays and top tube meet are different,
and rear drop out shape is different.

If we’re playing spot the difference on a purely visual basis:

– shaping around the rear dropouts
– the seatstay/seat tube junctions
– the position of the split in the seat tube
– the chainstays near the BB
– the down tube near the BB
– the seat tube near the BB
– the top of the head tube
– the top tube/seat tube junction

I mean, I could probably go on, but that’s pretty much the entire frame covered already…

+
brake mounts
cable exits

But all carbon frames are the same arent they? all made in the same factory and to deplorable working and environmental standards, plus none of them are worth the extra cash over Alu?

The carbon is a different spec for a start:

30T/40T Modulus Carbon XC Race

24/30T Mitsubishi UD carbon

Carbon

carbon

See! It’s the same! 😉

Lucky I used question marks

if only the question marks had been after ‘same frame?’

just get the Saracen. Glad too see them producing decent frames and not going down the BSO route like Muddy Fox have.

Vitus and Nukeproof are good for this too. From what I can make out, the Nukeproof Digger is a Vitus Energie with 650b wheels, wider bars and a £500 price increase

Lucky I used question marks

The Edinburgh Defence?

There not the same
Not even close

At least you got the Milton Keynes bit right.

So which one would you choose ?

I have a saracen Avro, great bike. I think id buy the saracen and spend the £500 on better wheels but the genesis does look better. 🤔

mashr

Member

Vitus and Nukeproof are good for this too. From what I can make out, the Nukeproof Digger is a Vitus Energie with 650b wheels, wider bars and a £500 price increase

Different head tube lengths, reach and wheelbase in some sizes suggests you’re wrong there.

JP

Lucky I used question marks

We’re they in the correct place? Did you structure the sentence correctly?

We’re they in the correct place?

FAIL

Oh, yer!

I already knew my written English isn’t great. I’ll add frame identification to the list….

I thought this was going to be about planetx

Different mold, geometry, Carbon lay up, weight, appearance and intention.
Genesis is an XC race bike, Saracen is a trail bike. A fun one too – love mine.

They are both frames..

There lies the similarities.

Ooh, overly harsh on the OP. They are very similar…
That genesis is damn expensive though… you could get a Transition Throttle frame for a lot less and they are bloody brilliant. And the same!* Although not a 29er.

.
.
*carbon
Look at that. Phwoar

Not clicked the link but what can quite often happen with linked companies if there is a “premium” brand and then a “lesser” brand is that last years tooling will be passed down from the premium brand if it was found to work very well and still be a valid geometry. This saves many 10’s of thousands in new tooling costs and promotes yearly development.

The carbon is a different spec for a start:

30T/40T Modulus Carbon XC Race

24/30T Mitsubishi UD carbon

So what do the numbers actually mean?

In terms of use, in marketing speak..

One is

“An XC – endurance bike that wants to push your performance to the limit in every way possible. The frames geometry is confidence inspiring allowing you to take on the most technical trails and descents. The frame can also be built with enough rear tyre clearance to take a 27.5″ x 2.8″ tyre and allows fitment for a front mech, Di2 gearing and even a dropper seatpost should you want to take the normal boundaries of a carbon endurance bike and kick them into the long grass!”

The other is

“Designed around 29″ wheels and 100-120mm travel forks it’s perfectly suited to smashing out off-road miles all day long. It features a 12 x 148mm Boost dropout system, IS42-IS52 tapered headtube and all cables are internally routed to keep it looking clean with routing for stealth dropper posts as standard. Its Shimano Di2 ready too with a neat battery port hidden in the downtube. It’s a bike that blurs the boundary between XC race machine and aggressive trail bike.”

So that’s completely different?

So that’s completely different?

Nope.

Yes – they are completely different frames. The original post said they are the same frame. They aren’t. They are from different molds with different Carbon lay ups – the numbers relate to their modulus rating (or stiffness). Higher numbers are higher modulus. Stiffer isn’t necessarily better though, and is more brittle. It is more expensive though which might partially explain the price difference.

I’d imagine they share some design features like the big mud clearance and the Di2 compatibility, as they are both owned by Madison, and so are UK focussed (mud clearance) and Shimano biased (Di2).

In the same way you could say that a Cotic Soul is the same as a Stanton Switchback. Same wheel size, same headset, BB, and rear axle standards, both steel (of different types) and both look similar in some respects. Doesn’t stop them actually being different frames.

Different head tube lengths, reach and wheelbase in some sizes suggests you’re wrong there.

I’ll admit that I’m too lazy to bother looking at geo charts,but if it’s just a geometry change then the £500 still doesn’t seem justified

As above, it’s more than that.

I’ll admit that I’m too lazy to bother looking at geo charts,but if it’s just a geometry change then the £500 still doesn’t seem justified

40 years of MTB evolution dismissed in one sentence. 🤣

40 years of MTB evolution dismissed in one sentence. 🤣

Not sure i get you. I’m talking about an alu CX and Gravel frame