if the need for self determination is so great and so obvious, then why wasn’t scotland clamouring for it at the treaty of versailles when self determination was on the agenda for the rest of europe ?

The treaty of versaille was an armistice agreement. Nothing to do with this at all.

No double standards from me. You distort what I say to attempt to slur me in the absence of any viable argument.

Slur? It’s an observation. I’m surprised you can’t see the irony in your enthusiastic and opposite viewpoints of identical scenarios.

I don’t have an argument though. I’m indifferent to scottish independence or british independence. The world will continue, stuff will sort itself out. The sky will not fall.

So you don’t believe in the right to self determination of a people?

Interesting question that TJ – I take it you’d be perfectly happy if the people of the Shetlands cut ties with Scotland? I mean, historically they were Danish, then spent time as a Crown dependency in their own right (like the Channel Islands) in fact there are those who argue that techinically they still are a Crown dependency…

So, do the people of the Shetlands have the right to self determination? ’cause if they do, thats your much vaunted Scottish oil wealth that’s going to pay for your independent super-nation f**ked isn’t it 😆

5th

I’m surprised you can’t see the irony in your enthusiastic and opposite viewpoints of identical scenarios.

The two scenarios are not identical, the position I adopt is the same in each case. The analysis I made of the motivations are very different.

The eurosceptic right of the tory party are driven by xeonophobia – they want to leave the EU. If there is a majority in england to do so they are welcome to do so. I think it would be harmful to do so. Howeer if thats what the people want to do thenthey havethe right to do so

The nationalism of the SNP is driven by a desire for self determination and is outward looking. It is not xenophobic in nature. a part of the reason why they want independence is to be able to make closer ties with the EU.

So, basically, if they agree with you, they’re progressive, if they disagree with you, they’re xenophobic… thats what you’re saying, right?

How about that Shetland oil wealth TJ? any opinions on their right to self determination yet?

The nationalism of the SNP is driven by a desire for self determination and is outward looking. It is not xenophobic in nature

What utter total garbage.

The eurosceptic right of the tory party are driven by xeonophobia – they want to leave the EU. If there is a majority in england to do so they are welcome to do so. I think it would be harmful to do so. Howeer if thats what the people want to do thenthey havethe right to do so

The nationalism of the SNP is driven by a desire for self determination and is outward looking. It is not xenophobic in nature. a part of the reason why they want independence is to be able to make closer ties with the EU.
Yeah, this is the problem I have. I can see decent, intelligent people holding for or against views on both fundamentally identical questions.

Not evil xenophobes and good nationalists.

We demand the right to determine what to fry!!!!! 😀 😀
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15561501

The nationalism of the SNP is driven by a desire for self determination and is outward looking. It is not xenophobic in nature.

That’s why the SNP were handing out leaflets at the Odeon when I went to see Braveheart all those years ago. They are so outward looking they get their historical information from Hollywood.

mcboo – Member

“The nationalism of the SNP is driven by a desire for self determination and is outward looking. It is not xenophobic in nature”

What utter total garbage.

Really? what is it driven by then?

I take it that the Roman Empire built Hadrians Wall as a recognition of Scotlands desire to build closer ties with the rest of Europe as well TJ 😆

And TJ – is it fair to equate the Scottish Universities’ decisions to charge fees purely on the basis of race/nationality with racism?

The treaty of versaille was an armistice agreement. Nothing to do with this at all

oh dear, *edit – there was no need for that – sorry*

everyday’s a school day

self determination for the nations of europe was one of the few of wilsons’ 14 points that actually made it to the t of v.

TJ, take off your rose tinted glasses. Scottish nationalism begins and ends with resentment against England and some perception of arrogance from the English. I got fed that garbage from birth, it is no different from any other Balkan style prejudice…..always definine yourself against “the other”.

Oh and another thing you wont like to admit. Scots are racist. Sorry to burst your little bubble.

McBoo – really – so the modern SNP is all about hatred of the english is it?

I have lived in Scotland much of my life. I have a strong English accent. Yes hatred of the English exists and indeed I have been on the wrong end of it moe than once but I have seen the nationalism mature and grow and it is no longer driven by this to a great extent. Scottish nationalsim used to be defined by hatred of the english – it no longer is.

trailmonkey – correct – but its still not relevant to Scotland.what voice did Scotland have at Versailles? Was Irish self determination raised?

self determination for the nations of europe was one of the few of wilsons’ 14 points that actually made it to the t of v.

Scottish independence wasn’t a huge movement at the time of T of V. The home rule bill was interrupted by WW1 but even that was only really a look for greater autonomy (i.e. what is there today more or less).

AFAIK, modern Scottish independence movements didn’t really get started till the 1920s, so it’s fair to say at the Treaty talks there was no great public appetite for change?

EDIT: As TJ states I think (no evidence) it’s unlikely Scotland had an independent voice given this political background.

TandemJeremy – Member
Zokes – thats is right that “Edinburgh defense” as you call it is based on lies about me. I have never done it – started a debate in seriousness and then pretended I was in jest. I have been accused of doing so but its something I have never done.

However like many “big lies” repeat it enough and people start to believe it.

Its an accusation that I have lied about my motivations – and that is not something I have ever done.

Posted 45 minutes ago # Report-Post

Just because you can’t remember it happening doesn’t mean it didn’t happen TJ.
It was about a year year and a half ago, a thread was started about riding a greeen rocky shoot in the north somewhere. About half way down the first page you come into the thread claiming you could ride it, when someone picks you up on this instead of saying at the start you where trolling winding people up, you get defensive saying you can ride black graded routes and argued the case that you could do it, some name calling went on, I think it was started by John Rambo who called you a chocolate boy. You ended up by saying it was all a wind up and you had been joking all a long. I think this was the last time I saw you using the Edinburgh Defence.
I have spent a little time looking for that thread but couldn’t be bothered after half an hours searching, I hope someone else can remember the same thread.

Bikepawl

I standby this absolutely

I have never done this and didn’t on that thread. I remeber the thread and I did make an arse of myself. However I did not lie which is what you are accusing me of. I do not and have never been serious about something and then claimed to be in jest when debate goes against me.

I do not lie like that. I take it very amiss to be accused of lying about my motivations.

TandemJeremy – Member: A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless – do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?

so self determination is pointless and stupid if YOU dont agree with the potential outcome then TJ?

I think I’ve seen this movie……

trailmonkey – correct – but its still not relevant to Scotland.what voice did Scotland have at Versailles? Was Irish self determination raised?

well it certainly worked for the republic of ireland (1921), there was huge pressure placed on the uk by the usa regarding ireland and change occured even though ireland had no representation at the t of v. you could even make a case for arguing that the ulster/eire dynamic is a classic case of post t of v self determination.

i would suggest, as i suspect you are aware that i am about to, that no calls were made for scottish independence at the t of v because at that time it suited scotland perfectly to be part of the union.

scottish nationalists at best resemble a spoilt boy taking his ball home because he’s managed to get a goal ahead on 89 minutes after picking all the best players to be on his team at the start.

at worst, well we’ve all seen nationalism at work.

I think I’ve seen this movie……

is it Airplane?

TandemJeremy – Member: A referendum on the EU union is stupid and pointless – do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs[u] Scotland’s[/u] best interests?

see i’d welcome a referendum on the union. only question is, do we have a say in it ?

missing you already 😉

trailmonkey – Member

see i’d welcome a referendum on the union. only question is, do we have a say in it ?

I have to say that is a very interesting question what the scope of the electorate for any referendum should be.

The very last person in Scotland who wants independence is Alex Salmond. He’s a shrewd, smug little bastard, who’s presently running rings around every politician in Britain .

The present half-way house suits him perfectly. Or this ‘Devolution Max’ wheeze of his would be like all his birthdays and Christmases rolled into one. But, frankly, there’s no way on Gods ****ing earth the English will wear that one! So what the Scots want is academic

If he gets full independence, then the game really is up. He’s ****ed!! And so is Scotland! And no-one knows this more than him. Expect more of what he does best: posturing, bluster and out-witting Westminster. But there will be no vote on independence unless he’s 100% certain he’ll lose it. He’s not daft!

TandemJeremy – Member
I have to say that is a very interesting question what the scope of the electorate for any referendum should be. i’m completely ignoring the discussion on the t of v and scotland because despite enetering the argument full of ill informed opinion, i have no where to go with it

fixeded it

Do I get a vote in Crouch End? I vote independance for Scotland and a happy future in an England that is forever Liberal/Tory.

Sheesh I leave you lot alone for one night and look what happens 😆

Trailmonkey – I am not ignoring that at all – as you said every day is a school day but what voice did Scotland have at Versailles? I don’t know. Did Ireland have a voice? Was there actually much of a independence movement in Scotland then?

TJ – could I ask your opinion on whether Alex actually has the remotest desire for independence? Really? Not the posturing and bluster. Real you’re-on-your-own independence?

Seems to be doing an awful lot of back-tracking since a referendum could actually become a reality

Trailmonkey – I am not ignoring that at all – as you said every day is a school day but what voice did Scotland have at Versailles? I don’t know. Did Ireland have a voice? Was there actually much of a independence movement in Scotland then?

well, i’ve answered all of that. ireland had no direct voice at the t of v apart from the irish lobby bending the ear of wilson. the principles of self determination then influenced the seperation of a) Eire from the UK and b) Ulster from Eire.

I am suggesting that scottish independence had no voice at the t of v because at that time scotland was perfectly happy to be a part of the union as brassneck suggests

AFAIK, modern Scottish independence movements didn’t really get started till the 1920s, so it’s fair to say at the Treaty talks there was no great public appetite for change?

which all rather paints a picture of scottish nationalism being

a spoilt boy taking his ball home because he’s managed to get a goal ahead on 89 minutes after picking all the best players to be on his team at the start.

really, from an english point of view who needs a partner like that ?

if scotland does get independence then europe beware.

Binners -I am sure thats what he wants. I have seen no backtracking. Its a philosophical thing to him

the manifesto said “referendum at the end of the parliamentary term”. thats the intention still.

A refererendum will not be passed tho unless Cameron keeps doing things to piss the scots off.

You have to remember that every political party bar the nationalists and most of the press are unionist so you will rarely get to see anything from the SNP not tainted by that

I guess the issue is why not buy from france instead?…

We already do and will continue to, EDF’s new reactors in the UK will be France’s biggest foreign investment since the war.

Industry response to original story:
http://www.scottishrenewables.com/news/scottish-renewables-responds-citigroup-renewables-/

I have seen no backtracking.

You’ve clearly not been looking very hard then mate? Whats this whole Devolution Max then? Wasn’t mentioned up intil this point. Lets be honest here – he wasn’t expecting a majority. Just like everyone else. Now he’s got one, he’s shitting himself that he’ll have to have a referendum. Thats the last thing he wants, for the reasons I’ve said.

So now its ‘Devolution Max’, which from what I can see can be summarised as

We’ll make all the laws and do what the hell we like, you keep writinfg the cheques

if this isn’t backtracking, what is?

What he wants is essentially what Greece has been getting from the EU for many years now. Independence would stop his little game dead in its tracks!

You have to remember that every political party bar the nationalists and most of the press are unionist so you will rarely get to see anything from the SNP not tainted by that

Yeah, yeah TJ, I get my information from such unionist mouthpieces as the BBC and the Guardian. Do me a favour mate. Lose the tinfoil helmet, and could I politely request that you don’t patronise me with statements like that?

Binners – you asked my opinion I gave it. The 3rd option on a ballot has been endlessly discussed for a long time. Its not backtracking. Salmonds personal preference is for a straight yes /no but he is not in a position to dictate – he needs to take others with him. He does not create policy – the party does

I am sure he wants independence

Edit – not intending to be patronising.

he is not in a position to dictate – he needs to take others with him.

He’s a whopping big parliamentary majority. He doesn’t have to take anyone with him. What he’s doing is called back-tracking. Plain and simple.

He’s realised what a lot of people have said for a long time – be careful what you wish for

He does not have a big parliamentary majority. He also cannot dictate policy within the SNP. He has to pursuade people and get agreement.

With all results in, the SNP had 69 seats, Labour 37, the Tories 15, the Lib Dems five, and others three.

Can you please explain to me how this isn’t a majority? My maths isn’t that good but 37+15+5+3+ what exactly?

Have I misunderstood this democracy lark then?