“Why is the marathon such a holy grail for non runners? Beats me! Most competitive club road runners I know tend to use their 10K times as a yardstick to judge themselves and others by.”

To be fair, even with a lot of club runners i run with marathon times get talked about a lot, and plenty base their seasons and training around marathons.
I agree it’s a shame non-runners don’t see the value in other times and distances though.
The standard question when someone finds out you’re a runner is ‘so have you done a marathon then?’
I’m much prouder of my 5k, 10k and 10 mile times than of the fact i ran an average marathon once.

It’s also a bit humbling when you run a 1:30 half and are still 20 odd minutes behind the winner 😐

My goal is currentl sub 21m 5k. When I reach that.. well.. I dunno… Maybe I’ll enter a triathlon 🙂

I decided I wanted to do a sub 3 hr marathon in 2011 I did it last April (2014) I had entered 3 before that but was injured on race day. It takes many years for your body to fully adapt to the demands of a marathon at that pace I think. A half is much more attainable and if you have a modicum of talent 1:30 might be achievable. My first HM was also in 2011 at 35 and was just under 1:30, in the subsequent 4 years I have reduced that to 1:16 whilst the weekly mileage required to achieve that has grown from around 28 to 65…

I think a lot of you are exaggerating the dificulty of a 3h marathon a bit, I was never that much of a runner at school (did XC in my last year, but only cos I hated the other choices more). Took up running quite casually about aged 40, gradually improved and my 10k pb is only 39:20, which I ran a couple of months before I did sub-3. Most experienced marathoners reckon 38m is about the usual threshold for a sub-3, you certainly don’t need to be anywhere close to 35-6! Having finally now joined a running club, yes I’m towards the sharp end of things but several of them can whip my arse (at least on shorter events).

Why is the marathon such a holy grail for non runners? Beats me! Most competitive club road runners I know tend to use their 10K times as a yardstick to judge themselves and others by.

I’d guess for a lot of the entrants finishing is the key, anyone who isn’t a complete couch potato should be able to waddle a 10k. it’s only the runners who give a monkey’s about time…and alpha male wannabes who find another none runner who has done a marathon.

all IMO of course – I, as a none runner, wouldn’t mind giving a marathon a shot someday, certainly wouldn’t care what time I did it in (and with bugger all training I waddled a few 10ks last time I was stuck on holiday with no bikes)

According to the Runners World calculator a 1:30 half = a 3:07 marathon = a 40:4010k. Obviously it isn’t totally accurate because some people are better at longer distances and vice versa, but I’ m told it is quite a good ready reckoner. It worked pretty well for my 5/10k times .

Different folks have different strengths, being a stubborn git I managed a sub3 marathon, best half is 1:24, 10k of 37. What am I most proud of? Definitely the marathon. 10k is just a world of pain for me, always feel like I should be able to squeeze more out of it but just doesn’t feel like a natural distance for me. Did my first ten mile race before Christmas and that felt like a lovely distance, can’t put my finger on why, guess it’s how you approach it.

To answer the op, I needed to be running 6 days per week to get sub3. Still managed some fun on the bike though!

This is such an interesting thread as by and large running times are comparable, unlike bike racing, (TT accepted).

And to prove that speed isn’t everything, I ran sub 35 for 10k during my build up to a marathon, yet just missed out going sub three.

Sounds like some good runner on here.

Going for a 3:05 marathon myself this year… 3:05 being the time to get for a good for age place at London marathon.

It’s going to be hard and I’ve done a 1:30 half before.

But this time I’m just focusing on the running… my bikes are gathering dust and my swimming goggles haven’t got wet in ages.

To be honest not really missing either of them…. just find running so much easy to do, in the sense that, with a young family and a house to do up, you just throw your trainers on and get out the door for a decent training session for an hour … no faffing with kit, mechancials or having to get to ther pool.

So careful OP … getting into running might dangerously effect your cycling and worst still…. once you find you can run the next step will be swimming and then you’ll be a dread triathlete 🙂

I went through similar mid-life crisis marathon a while ago. I wasn’t as bike fit as the OP but was riding regular social rides and jogging a couple of times a week. I decided at Easter to run an autumn marathon, and my target was 3:15. I was running 3 or 4 times a week on a similar schedule to the FIRST plan mentioned earlier. The biggest hurdle was injury management – I had plantar, achilles tendonitis and problems from a pelvic break that hadn’t bothered me before, so beware running puts a load on your body that cycling doesn’t.

Due to a number of factors (illness, and weather mainly) I missed my target with a 3:27, but planned to run another in spring and try to get closer to 3:00, that didn’t happen due to biking off resulting in broken ribs and wrist a few weeks before the race. After that I decided to run Eindhoven again and trained hard. I put riding (and life to some extent) to one side, ran with a club 3x a week and put plenty of long runs (30km+) in on a weekend, I was basically running 30miles every weekend but split over Saturday and Sunday. I ended up with a 2:59 but it was hard work. I’ve only being sub 1:30 once and that was the first half of the marathon, I’ve been <65 for 10 miles a few times though which is comparable I guess.

Most competitive club road runners I know tend to use their 10K times as a yardstick to judge themselves and others by.

That’s because competitive club runners I know only run marathons after they get too slow to be competitive at 5k and ‘retire’. I agree that 10k is harder in lots of ways than a marathon; (unless you’re Elite) a marathon is a 22 mile club run followed by 4 miles of hanging on, a 10k is a suffer fest from gun to tape, although maybe not quite as bad as a 10mile TT.

a 10k is a suffer fest from gun to tape, although maybe not quite as bad as a 10mile TT.

Now that’s funny, because a hard 10k kills me but a 10 mile TT, whilst uncomfortable, is no big deal at all.

I consider myself a reasonable runner with lots of race experience and yet i have not got near a sub 3 marathon,my half pb is 1:23 my 10k is 36 but marathon is 3:20. Ive gone through half way in a marathon at 1:30 aimming for negative splits and then blown up big time at 18 miles and grovelled home in 3:35.
As im 52 now i wonder if its still achievable, but i seem to be able to manage pain better now and wonder if its more “mental” stuff than anything else.
I have never found running affects my cycling or vice versa, if training sensibly you can compliment both disciplines.

I never found a 10k a suffer fest! Certainly all races should feel tough in the last 20% for me the marathon has a bigger proportion of that! If you want a real suffer fest try the 3 peaks fell race, I suffered cramp in every muscle in my legs for the last 4-5 miles – real agony. Still managed an ok time too!

I think a lot of you are exaggerating the dificulty of a 3h marathon a bit,

I think that’s along the lines of the fallacy of the self made millionaire. I.e. the assumption that they got where there are by hard work, and thus other people could do the same if they work hard.
A sub 3h marathon is relatively easy if you are on the right side of the physiological performance distribution curve for doing a sub 3h marathon. If you’re on the wrong side, it’s very difficult, or just plain impossible. I’d guess from marathon results that most people are on the wrong side.

Seems to me that physiological aptitude has a far greater effect on running than it does cycling.

I think one of the things with cycling is the exponential increase in drag from wind-resistance, masks a lot of difference in performance. I.e rider A could be putting out 10% more power than rider B and you’d notice very little difference in speed on the flat compared to two runners with the same power difference. Obviously hills expose differences more.

Yeah, races are won and lost on hills – certainly MTB ones.

Most people have missed something that is very important in the ops statement….”I used to run 400 and 1500 in my yoof”. To run a fast marathon you need to be comfortably cruising at pace…You can improve your cruising speed with reps whilst training but only so far. If you were born with a 400 runners speed and you practiced this in your youth then by default your cruising speed will be faster than others. Combine that with endurance training and you have a quick marathon…That is why Steve Cram ran such a quick marathon whilst he was commentating as well during a London ! 6 minute miling to him is like walking for us. I have run a few marathons , my first was 3.29 my second 3.27, third 3.02 and my fourth 2.56. At that time my 10k was 36 10 mile was 60 mins and my half 1.26 from memory. But other runners at my club who were quicker over the shorter distances never broke 3 hours. It really is a test of both endurance and the mind plus your body surviving the training necessary to succeed.

I ran my first marathon in August 2012. I started training in March having done no running for years. 3 runs a week – Tuesday was a moderate 10k, Thursday alternated between hill repeats and speed work on the track, Sunday was a longish relatively steady run. I was aiming at sub 3 and hit 2:59:36 on a relatively undulating course in India, so temperature was also a factor.

I am naturally skinny, so the right sort of build for running, so that does help, but I was never amazing at school or uni. I was 33 then too. My fastest 10k has been 37:20, so you certainly don’t need to be hitting a sub 36m 10k for your goal.

Most important factor I feel is nutrition and hydration. I got through 6 gels in my first marathon and never felt like I was going to hit the dreaded wall at any point.

Cheers, Rich

Trail running is vastly easier imo. I did a 15 mile mountain run a couple of years ago, in about 3 hours ish. Never would have considered running that far on road.

I’d agree with ‘easier on the legs and joints’ but I don’t know about easier per se – every bloody hill I run up is a muddy slip fest, and the same on the way down – really takes the energy and speed out of you, I can see it consistently in Strava splits. Uphill on a road is just down to how fast you are (or aren’t in my case).

I am naturally skinny, so the right sort of build for running, so that does help, but I was never amazing at school or uni. I was 33 then too. My fastest 10k has been 37:20, so you certainly don’t need to be hitting a sub 36m 10k for your goal.

But you see, for me, a sub 40 minute 10Km IS amazing. I don’t think I could train to it. I reckon with real application and the right course (I run where I want, not on ‘ggod’ courses) I could go under 45, but I don’t think I care enough to do it 🙂

Sub 3 marathon, I’d need a bike.

If you were born with a 400 runners speed and you practiced this in your youth then by default your cruising speed will be faster than others.

Hmm not sure about that. I used to be good at 400, and I can cruise nice and fast, and it feels great…

.. for about 500m.. then it starts to really hurt.. much more than a km and I am back to shuffling. 400m is a sprint, I reckon the 800 and 1500 guys from school are the ones that can train up the best.

With regards a fast’ish 10k times relevence.
3hr marathon require 6:52 min/mile which would give you a 43 minute 10k and a 90 minute half.
No way are you running a marathon at 10k pace, so it goes without saying that running 6:52s needs to feel relatively easy and be at a more sustainable heart rate.

A 37 min 10k is run at 5:57 min/mile; this gives you a fair bit of leeway to back off the throttle and give yourself a decent chance of holding pace for 3 hours.

I know that in my case, i can run 6:52s for a half marathon but would need to knock it back for a marathon, hence why i know i can’t run sub 3 …yet.
My 10k pace is 6:17 min/mile (39:03PB), so i either need to drop that somewhat or make my stamina significantly stronger so i can sustain 6:52 for longer.
In reality, what will probably happen is both. The distance/speed work i’m doing will increase my ability to hold pace longer and at the same time will speed up my 10k/5k pace…with a bit of luck 🙂

Go for it and enjoy Sam!

I’m currently training for a marathon in May and for me running doesn’t come easy. If I get anywhere near 4 hours I will be over the moon and most likely cry like a baby at what I would consider to be a good achievement.

I’ve been running on & off for a few years now but its really only been the last few months where I’m starting to see a bit of a breakthrough in my times. Running with other people has helped a lot as I used to run alone and not really push myself.

For me cycling helps my running a lot, but my cycling speed has definitely dropped as I’m riding with heavy legs more.

Nothing to add to the OP, but it kinda messes with the mind to think the top IM athletes can run a 3 hr marathon. After a 180km ride 😯

For cyclists looking to run decent marathon times I’d say it might be worth having a look at ‘The Hanson Brothers’ marathon training plan.
It’s a little controversial in that the longest runs are only 16 miles but are done on tired legs from previous runs, the aim being to simulate the last 16 miles of the marathon.
Not for everyone but worked for me when I’d all but given up on a sub -3 at 53 years old.

My longest run prior to my first marathon was only 18 miles at race pace, and that seemed to work fine for me!

Cheers, Rich

hmm, my marathon is 3.47.

10k in 42 (and a bit… 😳 )

weirdly never done a half, otherwise I did a 15mile run in 1.58. V happy with that as the course was a huge long hill on the way back. legs like jelly at the end. 😆

Not willy waving but I do have experience so I will outline my training before I ran 71 mins for a half (as well as sub 54 for 10 and 25:57 for 5 and 15:48 for 5k) as it may be useful.
Sunday up to around 12 miles around 6:30 pace all mixed terrain
Monday run home from work (12 exactly) in around 72 mins (occasionally under 70 mins)
Tuesday something interval based maybe up to 24×400 in around 75 secs
Wednesday as Monday sometmes with an additional 4 mile lunchtime run (usually fast around 5:30 pace)
Thursday whatsever I felt like maybe 5-6 at 6:30 pace
Friday depended on if racing Saturday
Saturday maybe 2 runs 5 am, 5pm

Not high mileage but non slower than around 6:30 (and that was multi
terrain)

Edit: I did run a marathon in 2:51 but it was just for fun and I ran it with some mates (running the last 10 in under 60 mins) just to prove you dont need very long runs to achieve a sub 3. I estimated I could run around 2:35 but family/work/injuries pretty much put an end to that.

You have a couple things on your side, you have plenty of time if you plan to race in March 2016, you most probably have a good aerobic ‘engine’ from your cycling and if you ran lots beforehand you hopefully have good running mechanics/ economy.

Your problems will most likely be time/injury. Fitting a good amount of cycling and running training into a schedule isn’t easy. Consistency is key to building good running speed and in particular not missing large chunks of training due to being injured. My preferred way of avoiding injury other than a balanced schedule pace/ training zone wise is slowly building up (10% increase in dist/week) to a consistently high mileage total. It is quite difficult to juggle cycling sessions and run sessions into a weekly format that allows enough rest between quality sessions especially if you have other things like life to get in the way. I’m training full time and it’s hard enough.

As a starting point I’d plot out when in the week you can run (and duration) and try to stick to those times each and every week. Work out your mileage total (or time total) for a week currently and build up adding 10% a week until you have filled your allocated weekly time. I’d not worry about ‘speed-endurance’ until you’re at your total time/mileage. Strength work run or gym based is always good in this phase to ward off injury in my opinion, however.

When you’ve built up to a good running volume it’s probably time to try out a quick test (5k/10K or if you’re lucky a 15K race) to see where you are. You could do it much earlier but you run the risk of getting injured. Once you have a test result you’ll have a better indication of if the times are feasible.

For Pace comparison I like to use Daniels vDot tables here, a sub 3 hour half puts you in vDot of 54 which has 10km at 38:42 and 5km at 18:40. However, this doesn’t account for if you are a more natural speed or endurance athlete if you’re 50/50 you’ll sit on the line for vDot 54, but more likley you’ll slope up (speed) or down (endurance.) If you do 2 tests at 2 different distances you can get an idea of your profile.

Iain

Somewhere between 42 and 44 (so I guess 43 🙂 ) on that vDot table based on 1 mile and 5km, which suggests I could do a marathon in under 3.40. However, what that table fails to take into account is that I am generally buggered after 10km and I’d have blisters. Then at 15km I’d have died. However the 5km time is quite realistic.

First road race 1983 aged 22 was ten miler 63 mins, four months later first marathon 3-36 did ten more over next three years, quickest was 3-20, best time for half was1-23 in 1984. Last road was 1987. Did none till 2011 managed local off road marathon in 4-15 was knackered but enjoyed it far more than any of the others. Time was erelevant just glad I can still do/enjoy it. Much better off road better on knees hips etc. good luck, enjoy!

Thanks for all the input and encouragement. I’ve still just been running off road because my newly ordered road shoes have not yet arrived. Still my Garmin watch tells me I’m running around 4.10m/km pace for 5-7km, so that’s encouraging. I was reasonably quick over 400 (sub 50 -just…) and under 2 mins for 800. So I like to think I have reasonable running genes, but this was half a lifetime ago…. Anyhow, I’ll keep you posted!

Hi Sam leave the garmn thing at home and just enjoy the run this morning outside is stunning

So I’ve been out reasonably regularly and I did a bit of a test last week not for a full 5km but a couple of miles on reasonably flat road and found around 4.10/km pace pretty reasonable. Still need quite a bit more running to crack 1.30. Finding it quite difficult to squeeze in around cycling training to be honest.

The worrying thing was that I received an email from my friend Steve on Saturday saying ‘are we still on for tomorrow?’ – I said ‘what tomorrow’ – ‘MK Half’ came the answer….. I was under the impression it was in May – turns out there are two. So he did the ‘other’ MK half yesterday, his first half and I think his first ever road race – 1.25.29, top 50 finish overall… My thoughts of keeping up with him are pretty much over.