I started running in May as well as being referred by the GP to Gym to help with two slipped discs I sustained last year. I’ve been really enjoying both after a fairly sedentary existence until then. Lost 10kg feel much stronger and my back problems are much better.

With the running I’ve just been running mostly 5ks three or four times a week with a 10k every week or so. I’d not really done any great research into training plans and have been just enjoying running most days what I thought was at a relaxed effort and some days harder.

I watched a few vids online about MAF base training and it seems all of what I thought were easy really weren’t and nearly all of my runs are in anaerobic not aerobic even though I purposely tried to run as slow as I could on my last run and still clocked 6 minutes per km at 150bpm (my MAF should be less than 138bpm) and it felt like I was nearly walking.

Has anybody done the MAF (slow runs and lower heart rates) thing and are you able to balance this with strength training as the conventional wisdom seems that any undue stress such as weights is not so good. Should I reduce the strength training until my aerobic base is up to scratch? I imagine this will be a long slow process but willing to give it a try.

What are you trying to achieve?

I seem to have developed a comfortable pace of around 6:00 to 6:15. At that speed, I’m enjoying running and enjoying the exertion. I’ve not looked at training plans, techniques etc as I’m happy.

Never done MAF as such, but running wisdom has always been about polarised sessions. So make your easy sessions super easy to allow recovery and your hard sessions really hard to give the best training response. So when I train for a marathon, my long runs are very easy and quite slow, but the hard mid-week clubs runs are very hard indeed.

Not sure where strength training comes into it mind you, so that likely doesn’t help.

Running helped your recovery from herniated discs? My back problems and subsequent slipped discs were certainly helped along by running.

Running slower definitely helps with endurance and recovery but in my experience doesn’t make you faster.

Isn’t this just the same as doing Long Slow Distance on the bike, which has been standard practice off-season in bike training since forever?

It certainly does help on the bike. You need a fitness base to build endurance and to keep a base fitness if you have to take a break. Very important. Bu you do need to do both, not JUST long slow.

Best jump onto the big running thread, loads of folks who can advise on there.

My BIL follows MAF method, he’s a beast, runs 100 miles a week, I dunno how he finds the time to do long slow runs tbh.

Certainly works for him, but you could argue that a conventional running method type schedule would too.

Are you calculating your heart rate by subtracting your age from 220 (or 180)? This isn’t very effective for most people.

It is likely that you are running faster than you should for your easy runs as thats what most people do. You’ve also only been running for a relatively short time, so I wouldn’t over-think it.

For an easy run aim to be able to hold a conversation without needing to take deep breaths, if running alone sing along to some music and see if you can do it without gasping for air.

The other thing to do during slow, easy runs is to focus on your running form by assessing how heavily you are landing and if your posture is starting to slacken as you tire. The thing I try to remember is you should finish an easy run feeling fresher than you started.

It will feel like you are brely moving to start with and probably feel slightly awkward but if you do it regularly over the winter, you’ll find you are running faster for the same heart rate in the spring as your running efficiency improves.

My take on it would be to step away from the internet immediatedly!

You’ve said you enjoy going for runs, you’ve lost weight and you feel great! Don’t ruin it by getting all scientific and stuff like that. Or timing yourself. Ewww.

Just go out for a run and enjoy being outside.

My take on it would be to step away from the internet immediatedly!

You’ve said you enjoy going for runs, you’ve lost weight and you feel great! Don’t ruin it by getting all scientific and stuff like that. Or timing yourself. Ewww.

Just go out for a run and enjoy being outside.

100%

I only ever get as scientific as recording my runs on Strava and trying to maintain / improve pace over any given route / distance / segment.

MAF is great when you’re fit enough that you’re actually running at your MAF HR. Otherwise you’re just going for a nice walk.

Join your local club. That’s the best way of finding what works for you as you’ll get exposed to lots of different training methods.

Most of your runs are definitely not anaerobic.

As others have said, what are you trying to achieve? Tell us that and some sensible advice can be given.

To do it properly I think you need to get your lactate threshold tested and then get someone who knows about that stuff to give you a training plan to work to. Alternatively you could just go and run, unless you want to reach some sort of target or achieve a specific time for a specific event?
I know people who have gone down the lactate threshold route and couldn’t get on with it and others who swear by it so it’s by no means a done deal even if you decide to go that route.
I run quite a lot and I just pick a route and run it. Don’t record times and just have a rough idea of distance. When I’m training for an event, my mantra is run further, run faster and run up more hills. It seems to work for me, most of the time. I do OK, I am by no means an expert and wouldn’t really want to advise other people on how to do it as I’ve no idea really what I’m doing myself, so if you can glean anything from the above that might be useful then great, but don’t read any of that as gospel. What works for one doesn’t for another. Good luck…

Thanks for the replies. I’m looking to run a sub 20 minute 5k and eyeing up a local half marathon in February. I have run a couple of 23 minute 5ks and 50 minute 10ks without any specific training. Only doing about 25/30k a week at the moment so know I need to up that a bit.

The anaerobic rates I’m just going off my watch and app.

Club +1, our track sessions worked wonders for my 5k pace, got me very close to sub 20, then I became lazy.

Starting back tonight.

Thanks for the replies. I’m looking to run a sub 20 minute 5k and eyeing up a local half marathon in February.

Overly simplifying things, if you want to run a fast 5k they key is hard and short intervals. For the half, the same but slightly longer intervals and some long slow runs.
Keep it simple.

My take on it would be to step away from the internet immediately!

This is also excellent advise, don’t overly complicate it. Up your mileage, run a bit faster and harder, and you’ll be fine.

And join a club. Being beaten up by the fast group twice a week has done wonders for my running.

As Molgrips said its the same as long slow distance on the bike. Keeping HR in Z2 makes the training stress really low and I’ve found it a great way to add in extra volume without getting fatigued. When I started running my aerobic base was not barely enough to run on the flat let alone uphill so I had to do a lot of fast walking. Unlike with cycling I couldn’t change down a gear to go slower. I’ve stuck with it for a just over a year and my Z2 running pace is still improving and hasn’t plateaued yet. I don’t do any running higher than Z2, but do 3-4 sessions of interval training on the bike a week.

It is boring as hell compared to running or cycling fast in that Z3/4 fun zone, I wouldn’t have been able to stay with it without a pair of headphones and a good podcast to listen to while walking/running.

And join a club. Being beaten up by the fast group twice a week has done wonders for my running.

This^^

If you want speed, then run with people who are faster than you (same with biking). You’ll get pulled along at a faster pace than you find comfortable, until you get fast enough to keep up.

As others have said the age old training technique is to do a long run on the weekend at low effort (obviously as you get fitter this may change in to a long, fast run) to build up endurance. Then add in a couple of intense sessions in the week, this may be track sessions, fartleks or whatever. If you’re fit enough / conditioned enough you may also throw in a tempo run.

Personally I’d go with the advice to just keep on doing what you’re doing. MAF method isn’t anything very special philosophy wise… and also to make big gains doing it you need to run a lot of miles.
I’d stick to doing what you’re doing and once a week add in some intervals if you want … start with 2 minutes fast, one minute easy and after a while go to 3 minutes hard, one easy.
And keep enjoying your running

Keeping HR in Z2

My problem is I cannot really run with my HR anywhere close to what I know my z2 is on the bike. All running is difficult for me!

My problem is I cannot really run with my HR anywhere close to what I know my z2 is on the bike

Neither can I, and I’m a skinny whippet of a man who runs a lot. My fast runs are at just under 7 minute miles, even if I run at 10 minute miles I’d not be in Z2 bar the first couple of miles.

I’m only going by what others have told me and they reckon it can take a long time for the body to adapt to the slow running and that needs to happen before you can then start to up the pace. Some one I used to run with had tried it and after 8 months decided it wasn’t working and gave up. They had gone through all the lactate measuring and tests prior to starting it but just couldn’t get the pace to normalise. They have gone back to a more conventional plan now and seem much happier with that. I don’t really know enough detail about it but I’ve not had the urge to try and give it a go, but then I don’t monitor pace or heart rate or any other metrics really so I’d probably struggle.

I did an iron distance Tri several years ago. The training book I used for it talked a lot about MAF. I even had my threshold measured at a university.

I found it helped me run and ride further but I’m not sure it helped me run significantly faster.

Second the advice to leave the science out of it and just enjoy what you’re doing. That’s what’s worked best for me.

If the objective is a 20 min 5K then short, fast intervals are what you need to develop the leg speed and necessary CV fitness. Natural pace and HR is very specific to individuals, find what zones what for you and structure your training around them, particularly for recovery sessions following intervals – just banging out interval sessions is fast-track to injuries.

YourGuitarhero is a sage, but chasing times is a phase we all go through. Utterly pointless but maybe needed to able enjoy running for the sheer joy of it??

So with that in mind, now is the perfect time, as the year comes to an end, to be running slow.

Run only breathing through your nose !! (non-scientific, aerobic method) Do that until at least xmas, I’d carrying on til feb. Then one session of 200m sprints (with complete recovery) a week for 6 weeks and then bring in longer intervals (let your body learn how to run fast without fatigue, then train it to run fast with fatigue)

Good luck, have fun.

Run only breathing through your nose

**** that! 🙂

All running is difficult for me!

All running has been difficult for me since childhood. I was last in every race at school, so slow my parents took me to see a doctor, I was diagnosed with mild dyspraxia, fitted with orthotics and given a sick note to tell the PE teachers to cut me some slack. I’m 42 now, during the first lockdown I started walking a 6.3km circuit almost everyday and slowly built up the pace starting to run the downhill sections first and using a HR monitor to keep in Z2 the whole time. Fastforward 18months and I only have to walk 2 short steep sections to stay in Z2.

Start slow walk if you have to you’ll get there.

Well done sir.

I’ve been off running for a few years now, just picking back up and trying to run a medium heart rate (for me) has meant I’ve had to decrease my stride length and up the cadence speed. It really pains me as I just want to stretch my legs and use my stride! Once I get back up to distance and/or duration I’m going to attempt to go back to my old style.

Overly simplifying things, if you want to run a fast 5k they key is hard and short intervals. For the half, the same but slightly longer intervals and some long slow runs.

@Lunge how long do you think for hard and short intervals?

Thanks again for all of the advice. I’m not married to chasing times so I think I’m going to give the slow training a good go over the winter.

Bit of an update with this. I’ve run for five days using low heart rate which for me I think should be around 135-138bpm. First day was tragic! Anytime I didn’t walk my HR was getting up to 164bpm and after 3km with average pace of 7:46 per km! I binned it off.

Next day 5km average HR 127, pace 6:52per km, next day 5km average HR 131, pace 6:44, today 5km average HR 134, pace 6:24 per km. Other than first run mentioned here my HR hasn’t got over 140. I know the HR is creeping up run by run but I’m encouraged that the times are coming down fairly quickly (I know that 6:24 per km is not quick!!!)

I’m going to try and maintain consistency with this and I’m hoping that in a couple of weeks/months that I’ll be around 5:30 minutes per km at 135-138bpm HR for an easy run rather than my average lately of 155bpm spiking at 170s towards the end of each run.

Obviously feeling a lot less taxed after running at lower HR and can’t wait to get out again! When I feel like I’ve kept the consistency and the HR times plateau then I’ll introduce the speedwork. Cheers again for the advice! Best bit of course was keep enjoying it or I probably won’t maintain it!

Start slow walk if you have to you’ll get there.

I can run. It’s just slow – 8.30 at the moment, and difficult, hard on my legs and unenjoyable. I’ve been doing it on and off for a decade, never really been fun, always been hard. I’m just not made for it, so however much I do it I’ll never be as good as someone else for the effort I put in. I don’t think it will ever be properly easy. Despite cleaning up in anything sprint related at school and being skinny I was always rubbish at anything over 800 and also hated it. Some people just aren’t distance runners.

Regarding heart rate, I’m much the same. At ‘easy’ pace, which these days is around 8:30/9:00mm my heart rate is in the 160’s. Compare that to when I ran my last marathon a few years ago, my average HR was 160 over the distance and 7:50mm!

Heading out tonight for another 5k….

Just started doing MAF running, currently @127bpm using his formulae. Equating to a
steady 10min mile.
Pace obviously changes due to gradient from almost walking uphill to a bit faster when pointing doonhil.

@molgrips

It’s just slow – 8.30 at the moment

Assuming that’s per mile, that’s not slow at all. If you can hold that pace for 5k that’d put you in the top 15% of most parkruns and in the 3rd group out of 6 or 7 at my running club.

I’m just not made for it, so however much I do it I’ll never be as good as someone else for the effort I put in. I don’t think it will ever be properly easy. Despite cleaning up in anything sprint related at school and being skinny I was always rubbish at anything over 800 and also hated it. Some people just aren’t distance runners.

I will (somewhat bravely having never met you) politely disagree with you here, mainly as they way you talk about yourself is a perfect description of me 5 years ago. I too was a teenage sprinter (went to the Nationals don’t you know!) but at 35 literally couldn’t run to the end of my road. Even as a teenage runner, 200m was my max and a 400m warm-up felt a long way.
When I started running it was horrible, everything hurt and I felt like I was making no progress. But I stuck with it and, after a point, the love arrived and now I’m firmly “a runner” who thinks nothing of going out for 18 miles on a Sunday morning with no fuel and a raging hangover… I’ve also lost 2.5 stone and am the fastest I’ve ever been on a bike.
The key was to be consistent. To start with, I ran 3 days per week, every week, no negotiation unless I was injured. This formed the habit and started to build the muscles I needed. If you don’t do this, you’ll struggle, and this alone is the reason many people don’t think they can run.

I’ve watched a fair few low HR training vids lately but this one was great.

I hadn’t heard of it before I saw this thread but it’s similar to how I trained for my half marathon a few years ago from a base of zero running to a not embarrassing time.

Starting off in the winter I did a lot of very slow runs with walking up hills, by the summer I was banging out 10 miles before work at 8:30-9 mile pace quite comfortably.

I’m going to go back to that this winter as intervals don’t seem to work for me, I much prefer running long and sloooooooow. Gives me more time to listen to music anyway.

The only downside is that there is more opportunity to soil myself.

The key was to be consistent. To start with, I ran 3 days per week, every week, no negotiation unless I was injured. This formed the habit and started to build the muscles I needed.

I used to run twice a week fairly consistently. I was hoping for improvements, but whilst I got quicker it never really got easier or more enjoyable. There’s only so long you can keep slogging away without any enjoyment before you start wondering why you’re bothering. I mean maybe with iron discipline I could, but without enjoyment that’s hard to do. Especially as I do actually enjoy my cycling and I could be doing that instead!

If you train slowly you generally become very good, unsurprisingly, at running slowly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if thats what you want to do and you will gain some large health benefits and become much fitter.
If you want to race or just run quicker then you need to introduce faster running into your training. The concept of training very slowly to improve performance (and for performance I am talking about speed) only works if you are intermittently running at very high intensities also. For example a typical distance runner may have several “easy” day per week but possibly 2-3 very intensive days (many runners use a 10 day cycle as it allows enough time to fit in intense and easy sessions)
In my opinion very easy training at low intensities is seen as an end in itself. Absolutely nothing wrong with that but if your aim is to get faster then you wont do it training this way, you have to introduce high intensity load.

I was hoping for improvements, but whilst I got quicker it never really got easier or more enjoyable.

That’s fair. When I started I made a deal with myself that I’d run 3 times per week for 3 months and if I still hated it, I’d stop and never talk of it again. Took the best part of 2 months to get there, but I did in the end. Though, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure anyone enjoys running all the time.

If you train slowly you generally become very good, unsurprisingly, at running slowly.

This is very true.
Polarised training is the way to go. When you plan to go fast, you want to go really fast, the rest can be slow base miles. My typical week is 2 tempo runs (fast club runs for just over an hour), 1 speed session and the rest over a range of distances from 8-18 miles at slower paces.