One thing is for sure, England are being pinged far too much. Whether deservedly or not, it doesn’t matter. Smart players adjust.

I haven’t seen the stats on possession, but I doubt England had much. Then again, if you get pinged every possession, you won’t have much!!

I do love watching Josh Adams when he gets moving. RZ has the wheels but Adam’s is so strong/slippery.

Watch how Zammo leaves May behind!!

Can you run up to a player and rap the ball over his head, run round him and kick it before it lands then?

I dunno – but if you drop the ball, it hits your lower leg, then it goes over the player’s head you can collect it and play on, even if it hits the floor. This is called a ‘kick’.

Knock on all day long.

Gamesmanship in playing the ref for the Adams try from the penalty kick.

England didn’t learn from their mistakes. You play to the ref, you play to the invisible line only the ref can see. As a professional player you should be able to figure that out within the first few minutes.

I think the English players are being over coached, there are some very good players in that team and their natural abilities are so repressed it’s like watching rugby by numbers.

Wales March on, partially due to the awful ref.

I think that the English players are being chewed out by Jones all the time, which makes them uncertain and robs confidence.

Knock on all day long

If you listen to the conversation with the TMO, there was almost no debate..to the officials that know the rules, it wasn’t

Wales had a pre planned move ready, biggar asked the ref to tell him when time was back on, it was the refs call from there. Could have been 2 or 40 seconds before he blew.

Awful decision, but not Wales fault or gamesmanship

Wales had a pre planned move ready, biggar asked the ref to tell him when time was back on

not sure if pre-planned, but willimas ran up to bigs, had a word and then the way bigs asked the question, they knew exactly what they were doing. fair play to them, but i can fully understand why faz was furious

I feel a bit sorry for Itoje, he is trying to be two locks to make up for that huge useless dumb lump they keep picking alongside him.

I think that the English players are being chewed out by Jones all the time, which makes them uncertain and robs confidence.

I get this feeling too, I don’t suppose there is much nuance in his approach to the players.

I wonder if England believe the hype they generate too much. They just expect to win. Scotland are always going to be totally up for their game with England. They brought an intensity which England couldn’t match. Wales were far more alert. There’s not much between England, Wales, Ireland or Scotland so these things make all the difference.

so i”m going to say it, and i know my welsh brethren are studiously trying to not think about it, but i’m just going to say it – wales for the the slam.

now, whilst there is undoubtedly and a large element of post biking drinking for most of the afternoon in my assertation, there is some logic. we’ll beat italy and then it’s France in delayed game / post covid turmoil when we’re four games on the bounce and looking incrementally better each game. you’ve got to fancy the men in reds chances when we have history to responding to the big game?

and if that is the case, can you think of a GS that could be deemed as “spawny” previously?

PS fully aware i’ve just jinxed it / this comment will come back to haunt me

Wales had a pre planned move ready

Not for the first time with this ref…

Ref called time on, game on.

Farrell could well have seen a card for the back chat as well. Which would have been hilarious.

Also, that LRZ video above, shades of Ieuan Evans absolutely smoking Rory Underwood in 93 (think it was 93)

Looking at the knock on incident again I have slightly revised my view of the facts. The ball did go forward after RZ first touched it, but possibly he did maintain contact with it at all times until it hit his thigh and started going backwards, whereupon he lost contact with it. Which I think makes it not a knock-on.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

If you interpret losing possession as happening at the last point of contact with the ball before the ground or another player touches it, then the ball did not go forward after possession was lost.

It is not clear if RZ maintaind a hand/finger on the ball over the relevant time, but I guess the benefit of the doubt should go to him.

ETA on this version of the facts, the difficult area of interpretation of the rules (player loses contact with the ball, the ball goes forward but then goes backwards off the players legs) is not relevant.

Wales had a pre planned move ready

Not for the first time with this ref…

Ref called time on, game on.

I think Wales also knew that Ford would be “hidden” on the wing in defence in those moments. Smart play, but still, I think poor from ref.
I also liked the fact that for the first 10 mins everywhere Zammo went in defence North was right next to him. First kick off went to Zammo’s wing and North took it.

Did anybody see the brief update to the ref’s wiki entry?
Own up Kryton!
Pascal Gauzere is a referee for Wales who represents the Welsh Rugby Federation at the international level.He has officiated at the highest level since 2006 refereeing pro14, Heineken Cup and 6 Nations matches. He unfortunately doesn’t understand what a knock on is and is in a relationship with Alun Wyn Jones.

A game with plenty of talking points, Wales deserved winners, not sure on a grand slam as somewhat flattering opponents to date and France will be tough. I feel a bit for Itoje as mentioned above, having to play with the useless lump Hill. His only contribution to a game is missing tackles and flopping over on the wrong side. People criticise England’s constant kicking but it appears Young’s has little other option as if they keep the ball in the own half they give a kickable penalty away.

Nigel Owens says both tries should have been disallowed

My view (FWIW) is first one was a bit unfair (tho the English players were in position and ready on the other side of the pitch); second one..I have no idea..but there seems to be some ambiguity in the laws.

Also, it’s reported that the French government are threatening to withdraw permission for France to play if they can’t come up with a decent reason to explain how they managed to get Covid when they’re supposed to be in a bubble.

Oh, and England lost cos of lack of discipline…

Own up Kryton!

Lol! I was alerted to it yesterday but was too slow to take a screen shot.

That issue will rage on, theres plenty of clips online now where he’s talking to Biggar, snaps a look at England in a huddle then quickly blows his whistle – watch that section in isolation and it looks like a deliberate call.

The England team’s in a bit of a mess now and on a downhill. Their game has been worked out, their coaching to rigid and adaption on the pitch missing, then the ref goes against them and it must feel like they can’t do anything right. Social media is on the rampage for EJ’s sacking.

On the plus side their were some good individual performances. Billy and Mako V were better, May has sharpened up, Watson as good as always and although quiet there was nothing wrong with Sincklers game. Centre needs looking at, Farrells the political choice and Slade isn’t offering too much to scare people at international level. Daley’s performance speaks for itself.

true but misses the point that without those two dodgy tries (maybe not technically incorrect but very debatable) England would have been at least 12 points in front. Then you don’t need to chase the game in the same way, push the boundaries, etc. I know people say that it got back to 24:24 but to do that they’d already burnt any lenience and as a result the Welsh referee was looking to ping them whenever he could, and while they were daft to give him the opportunity he couldn’t wait to get his Dragon-emblazened whistle out of his pocket and blow it again.

Very poor – and disrespectful in the way he treated Farrell. It cuts both ways and the ref should never do an international again on that performance. Player management is a vital part, he clearly can’t do it, and just relies on ‘authority’.

Now as far as the ref goes, I think it wasn’t good, but why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks, why did one winger run to cover his side whilst the other wander over aimlessly. Why were they not seemingly aware that Wales hadn’t called a shot at goal. The ref has to call time on eventually and when he does Wales can play.
Rule one paragraph one of how to play rugby, watch out for a quick tap.

"I would be fuming,"
"I'm speechless,"
"He did not give them time to set."

Our #bbcrugby panel have their say on THAT opening Welsh try.#sixnations #WALvENG pic.twitter.com/vy9vjtHIYt

— BBC Sport (@BBCSport) February 27, 2021

That is very interesting.

Players on the right ran into position and were in position. Players on the left were walking slowly backs to the ref. The ref did not blow the whistle till after the huddle had broken up and there had been time to set as can be seen from the fat the RHS was set

Two mistakes from the english players. We all know Biggar is a sneaky shit. someone would have been watching and walking into position backs to the ref

Rule one paragraph one of how to play rugby, watch out for a quick tap.

True, and then they did it again for the one they tapped later on. Doubly poor.

I never played rugby after school and don’t know it in such detail. I did play football to a decent level and reffed that as well. I don’t see it as very different to the free kick guidance that ref’s are taught. That if you want to take a quick one, then take a quick one – but once that couple of seconds has passed, and it becomes a ‘ceremonial’ free kick, then it’s to the whistle. And then you run through a check list – any cards sorted and done, ball in right place, wall back 10, ref in position and a quick check to see the goalie isn’t still lining up the wall / cleaning his studs on the post / wiping his gloves on a towel. You might need to hurry him/her up a bit at that point, but you still check.

The ref here seemed only to happy to further penalise England after asking Farrell to talk to his players. With Biggar asking for when time was back on he needed to just say ‘I asked them to have a word, now they need to reset’ and OK, hurry them up a bit.

Referees are supposed to referee the game without influencing or impacting it. You can argue the second try wasn’t because it technically may have been correct, but the referee absolutely influenced the scoring of the first.

De ja vu. At 1:33 SA captain told to speak to his players, 6 seconds later O’Gara takes a tap penalty. Brian Moore in commentary says “they should have been paying attention”. Is it possible that with so many England players not having played much rugby recently, that they were somewhat in a training mindset?

Congratulations to Wales and they thoroughly deserved the win. Both tries were fine IMO, with the first probably being the more debatable. The thing is, if England didn’t give away penalties the way they do, then they wouldn’t find themselves in the position of having to defend against them.

Wales played well and to their considerable strengths, adjusted their game to the reffing much better and quicker than England. The final result demonstrated the difference that currently exists between the 2 teams. Wales should win the G.S.

England do seem to have problems and I don’t think the current staff are progressing the team. Farrell isn’t performing well, seems frustrated and just does not deliver the kind of leadership the likes of Alun Wyn Jones does now or Martin Johnson did. England have very talented players, so I do have to question whether Jones (and his selections & tactics) need a refresh. I don’t like calling for coaches to be replaced but Jones’ leadership doesn’t appear to be improving England, the same problems are seen game after game.

There is also the point with that first try that Wales were in the groove and attacking, England had been pinged numerous times for infringing. The ref says have a word, it’s England’s decision to go to a huddle and take a breather, why did they get the water on? They assumed it was a kick at goal, switched off? It’s the same as a tap and go. Got to be switched on. I think the ref had just had enough of England and their infringements and moaning tbh.

I think the ref had just had enough of England and their infringements tbh

But you are supposed to be neutral and treat each incident in isolation. It’s hard but ‘I’m pissed off with you now so I’m going to allow this….’ is not good refereeing.

anagallis_arvensis
Full Member
Now as far as the ref goes, I think it wasn’t good, but why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks

The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.Thats good refereeing as it signals to the players that it is becoming a card issue and he is giving them a final chance to sort it out.That’s what they were doing when the penalty was taken. Why he would then turn and signal to take the penalty is something he will be discussing on a zoom meeting this week. The second one? Less clear in the laws( and they ARE laws now) but we used to be taught that it is about control of the ball, so seen that called back. Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.

why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks

The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.Thats good refereeing as it signals to the players that it is becoming a card issue and he is giving them a final chance to sort it out.That’s what they were doing when the penalty was taken. Why he would then turn and signal to take the penalty is something he will be discussing on a zoom meeting this week.

In my eyes the referee is the one who controls the game. He should be the one to allow or not the water carriers on. It was a poor show to not at least ask for a confirmation from Farrell that the “word” had been delivered and done.

Why the “word” required a meeting rather that “CUT OUT THE STUPID **** PENALTIES!!!!!!” Is only something they will know. I suspect it was so Jones could get a message on to the field to micro manage the game.

Exactly big black shed. Why did they need a huddle? It stopped the flow of the Welsh attack, stopping the clock, getting water on. That’s gamesmanship as much as Dan Biggars smartly taken quick chat with the ref and kick.

Burko,it was the REF who told Faz to talk to his players about the number of penalties. While they were doing that he turned to Biggar and indicated he could take the penalty.

That’s what they were doing when the penalty was taken

If you watch the video they had finished the huddle and were fanning out, some with urgency, others were just hanging about having a drink. When he says time on Wales can play…. I agree it was shit but no laws were broken so once the try had been scored it had to stand.

The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.

He didn’t say have a break and a drink though did he…watch Mako, it looks like he’s supping a pint as he turns and watches the ball being kicked to the corner!!!! I mean I think it’s piss funny but fully agree I wouldn’t if it happened to Wales.

Wales playing to the ref was what led to England getting quick ball for there tries, Wales pretty much stopped competing at the break down, England just carried on conceding pens and were lucky not to see yellow.
I can’t understand the high tackle on Halaholo, they were gibbering on about the use of arms, it was still a high tackle rather than a shoulder charge, mitigation he started low and slipped up but he certainly hit him high, pen, move on, nothing more but it was illegal.

Itoje must have been close to having a mid game sit down given how many penalties he gave away.

Oh and penalties, never turn your back on the opposition.
And the coaches coming on at every break to pass messages needs looked at. Sorry water carriers.

For me, I think the fact that the players on the right we’re in position makes it just about ok..it would suggest to the ref that the team meeting was over…I don’t think the ref has to wait for the water carriers to leave the pitch (high time that stupid practice stopped anyway)

Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.

I don’t think so, in 5 years time it will just be another win.

To me both contested tries show the rugby basics, play to the whistle.
I think after the ‘knock on’ the England players eased off, as it looked like a knock on, where as Williams just carried on.
The penalty just reminds me of the Mike Phillips, wrong ball lineout try. He was officially wrong, but they scored and that’s that.
England need to heed the ref more and learn how to control the ref. Wales did that better.
It might be tricky but a win is a win.

Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.

Jam Slam on the cards.
Currently just a triple frown.

As an Ireland fan, just want to say there was nothing jammy about Wales first win.
Scored more tries, more points, and defended better. Pom deserved red. It didn’t cause the result, Wales earned it. Ireland did well to get the losing bonus point with 14.

Thought they deserved their other two wins aswell, tbh.

My view, match official stops time, tells captain to sort out his players. It is the officials responsibility to make sure that both teams are set and ready to resume. he cannot allow one team to take a quick penalty as he has stopped time. The water carriers are on for both teams, in fact one of the Welsh ones is running over to talk to Josh Adams when play restarts. I am an hockey umpire and if I did something similar, I would expect a very painful Zoom call the following week.

England’s inability to stop giving away penalties was the main reason that Wales won. But if you are chasing a game you tend to give away penalties. Will be interesting to see what matches the ref gets in the future.

sadmadalan

If you look at the twitter link AA posted above its clear that the huddle has broken up and there has been plenty of time for the players to get set. Its not the refs fault they wasted it. RHS defense is all in place.

Thats not the refs fault. He is wandering about and wanders over to the mark. Stands there for a few seconds then raises his hand and blows the whistle.

Ref did nowt wrong. Biggar is a sneaky git, the England team were incredibly lackadaisical

yes I would be fuming if it was my team and yes initially it looked like the ref got it wrong but having seen that clip its 100% the english players at fault. the RHS winger is right at the touchline facing the play and watching. the LHS defense is slowly walking into position with backs to the play

Itoje and pens – the type of player he is he will always risk pens and some of the m were harsh but thowing players across lineouts is an unforced error, deliberate knockon is an unforced error, being offside and joining play iss an unforced error.

another game only 2 or 3 of the five would have been given. Thats the way it goes.

Scotland / England we got every bounce of the ball and every 50 / 50 decision. Scotland / wales Wales got the run of the green. Thats just how it goes

What cost England the game was not the ref. What cost them was dumb penalties and the compounding them – same as Scotland Wales. Also throwing easy intercepts