On Saturday I had a simple bump. Going into a roundabout the car in front stalled and I clipped the back wing. Under 20mph but she was in a Peugeot 107 and I’m in a Transporter. Amazingly her bodywork looked fine but the offside rear wheel was all rather shopping trollyish. I’ve got a bumper and quarter panel damage and my nearside front wheel is out of alignment and noisy when I drove 3 miles home.

No histrionics and exchange of details went ok. I waited with her until her family arrived and we were all pleasant to each other to the extent that they thanked me!

Got home and called the company, whose name implies that you only have to call them once! Went through everything and they said they would get back to me. I received a few emails giving a transcript of my description of the RTA and saying they assessed it as my fault. (Although I’d argue it wasn’t all my fault I am realistic enough to know how this works) I wouldn’t get a courtesy car if I choose a garage etc. They said they get in touch.

I phoned this afternoon and was asked was happening. They made me go through the whole accident description again and then a validation process!

The validation process included the service history of the van (I’ve had it 5 months and changed the oil cooler, cam belt and new discs and pads) Then they started on my proposal form, how many miles annually, (not had it year and well under limit) where’s it kept, what do for a living, (semi retired company director) and inside leg measurements etc.

Then they started on how many points I had on my driving licence. At the time of purchase and paying for my insurance it was three as declared. I openly said I had two more speeding tickets just before Christmas (both only 4 mph over 30 limit, and I know thats no excuse) As the conversation progressed they then asked for my National Insurance Number and driving licence number to check what I was saying was true.

I have failed the validation process! It will be reviewed because I didn’t inform them of getting extra points. I can’t remember being told that I had to update any personal changes. Completely understand if theres a ban, medical, V12 Merlin engine dropped into the van.

I felt violated when I came of the phone. It all seems to be going very sour. They are looking to weasel out on any chance they get.

Where does this leave me? Am I facing paying for my, the other parties and any other costs? I’m reading the 13 documents they sent me when I signed up but after the crappest 12 months ever this seems to be the inevitable icing on the cake. Mum dies, son almost dies from asthma attack and wife gets cancer (thankfully ok after major surgery around the time I got the extra points)

Apart from the therapy of getting this out does anyone have experience/advice about insurance companies failing to pay out?

No words of advice, but all this and they wonder why people decide not to involve insurance when it’s under a few k of damage? You’d have been better off giving the girl a grand and walking away by this point…

It is entirely likely that your insurers will still pay the third party losses but not your own.

The points bit is interesting. Does your policy wording say you have to notify them mid-term? If it does you may be struggling as it is material information and if they say you should tell them on receipt of points and you haven’t then they may have the right to deny the first party claim. If it doesn’t then I think they maybe taking the piss.

Contrary to popular belief insurers don’t try to wiggle out of genuine claims that days as the regulations around consumer insurance sales are so tight these days however that’s not to say some don’t.

Purely on a ‘helping a random stranger out on a forum’ and in no way related to my professional experience, if you have a copy of your policy wording as a pdf feel free to email it me (email in profile) and I’ll happily give it a quick once over…

Shit situation! But yes you should have notified them of your extra points. Three speeding fines is enough for a lot of insurers to withdraw cover.

dannybgoode – thanks I will do when I calm down a bit. Really not trying anything on with them and can even afford to pay for it all, but I wanted to do it properly.

I wanted to do it properly

That was your first mistake 😆

Interestingly this is from Admiral website…

<h2>Things you need to tell your insurer at renewal</h2>
Some things can wait until it’s time to renew your policy.

1. Penalty points

If you or any named drivers receive a fixed penalty, motoring conviction or are disqualified during your policy term you must tell your insurer at renewal, using the DVLA conviction code. You must also declare attending any driver awareness courses. You don’t need to mention parking fines.

https://www.admiral.com/magazine/guides/car-insurance/what-do-i-tell-my-insurer

…so scour your policy document carefully!

Not telling your insurer of extra points on your license is not good in these circumstances. Sounds like you may be paying for your van yourself. That’s probably why they have gone in hard on the questioning. In their business model – if you don’t tell them one thing then what else haven’t you told them?

See on that basis then the op should be in the clear as the points have been accrued mid-term.

The bit about driver awareness courses is contentious and I had a bit of a set to with the bloke that was running the one I went on as he said insurers can’t ask.

I pointed out they could ask any questions they felt pertinent to the underwriting and of they thought a DA course was material then they were within their rights to ask.

and can even afford to pay for it all, but I wanted to do it properly.

Until the family convince her that she has whiplash injuries 😉

See on that basis then the op should be in the clear as the points have been accrued mid-term.

depends, that’s an Admiral policy wording and it may differ insurer to insurer.

Yes I know that! From memory though most insurers only ask to be updated on points at renewal but hence why I’ve offered to review the OPs wording 🙂

Yeah your mistake is not letting them know about your speeding tickets, I’m pretty sure when I got mine the fine and DVLA even told me I had to inform my insurance. It’s naive mistake and meant without malice. As for the collision, totally your fault you drove into her from behind.

Hope you get sorted but I suspect you’ll pay for your van.

Then they started on how many points I had on my driving licence. At the time of purchase and paying for my insurance it was three as declared. I openly said I had two more speeding tickets just before Christmas

Just for clarity (as the dates are relatively close….) Did you do the speeding just before Christmas or did the points get put on your licence just before Christmas – i.e. did either of the speeding offences happen before the start of the insurance cover and were being being processed at the time of the start of the policy?

After reading that Admiral one above it looks like you need to be reading your firm’s Ts&Cs v carefully – as should the rest of us!!!

I got a rolly eyed telesales person last time I renewed. My wife changed jobs 10 days before renewal date. As the job roughly fell under the same job title but in a different industry the website went all computer says no and I had to speak to a human to get the change made. Telesales bod took the details…which made zero difference to the renewal price then went all evangelical about why I hadn’t informed them about the change of job for the existing policy and did I realise I had risked invalidating our insurance. They don’t seem to be in it to make friends oddly.

Although I’d argue it wasn’t all my fault I am realistic enough to know how this works

You would never win that argument, anywhere.

As the others have said, print off the policy documents and go over them with a fine-toothed comb. Drivers with (I’m assuming) 3 convictions and 9 points are not drivers most companies want to insure. You may now have tripled down on that by not telling them about the convictions and then running into the back of a stationary vehicle. Knowledge is key and it’s all written in your documents

I didn’t inform them of getting extra points. I can’t remember being told that I had to update any personal changes.

Three speeding fines is enough for a lot of insurers to withdraw cover.

People who get caught speeding are statistically much more likely to crash in the following year. This is why insurers want to know about them – they are absolutely pertinent to the risks they’re insuring. Its not so much driving fast that is the issue (although that obviously doesn’t help) but getting caught shows you’re just not paying attention – its easy not to speed and and its also easy to speed and not get caught – 85% of drivers have never had a ticket. People who get caught aren’t concentrating – they either didn’t know what the speed limit was, or did and didn’t realise they were breaking it,  or knew they were speeding but weren’t paying enough notice to their surroundings to avoid getting caught. If you’re not noticing those things you’re not noticing lots of things.

You’ve illustrated this quite well by already having points for speeding – then getting caught, then getting caught again (thats three instances of something people manage not to do in their whole driving career), and then, a short while later – crashing.

Of course speeding tickets are just a stealth tax everyones doing it blah blah.

Although I’d argue it wasn’t all my fault I am realistic enough to know how this works

how was it not all your fault ? You , presumably, were driving without due care and attention to have clipped a stationary vehicle ?

Boys, boys I have accepted responsibility for my first accident in 30 years. That’s not what I’m worried about. If I failed to do something properly I will hold my hands up uncomplainingly but it all feels very slippery from the way the insurance company is behaving. Of course I didn’t check the reviews when I took the policy out but now I’m digging deeper them seem to be a real sheet shower.

Only someone with 3 previous driving offences would start this topic – on Saturday I had a simple bump :0

Apologies lol

A mate at work had a non fault bump in the fire engine then when he want to insure his car they asked about accidents and he said none they then pointed out the knew he’d bumped the fire engine and cancelled his policy refused his renewal and told him to make sure to now inform new insurers he had now been refused insurance, his policy went through the roof, madness but its all in the small print

Of course I didn’t check the reviews small print when I took the policy out but now I’m digging deeper them seem to be a real sheet shower. keen to know I was caught speeding again.

Ftfy

Interesting area. I’m with Direct Line. Their policy is that some changes like occupations or address car is kept are notified ASAP. Speeding convictions are notified on renewal.

On page 34.

https://www.directline.com/assets/pdf/car-insurance-policy-document.pdf

So definately depends on OPs policy wording.

Shit situation! But yes you should have notified them of your extra points. Three speeding fines is enough for a lot of insurers to withdraw cover.

That’s absolutely not true. You only need to inform them at renewal for anything less than an actual driving ban. It’s much the same as having an accident on a different car/policy. You have to tell them at renewal but it makes no difference to your current insurance.

Boys, boys I have accepted responsibility for my first accident in 30 years. That’s not what I’m worried about. If I failed to do something properly I will hold my hands up uncomplainingly but it all feels very slippery from the way the insurance company is behaving. Of course I didn’t check the reviews when I took the policy out but now I’m digging deeper them seem to be a real sheet shower.

Just pay the money etc to get the stress out.

A few grands is not the end of the world considering what you have gone through in life.

If you are running your own business you can always earn it back. What you do not want is the stress cause by the situation.

Not worth the stress.

My policy requires me to inform them straight away if convictions occur.

From my campervan insurance…

You must tell us as soon as possible about any changes which could affect your
insurance and which have happened since the cover first started or since you last
renewed it.

*

*  Convictions and prosecutions.

*

That’s Adrian Flux and underwritten by Trinity Lane.

Shit situation! But yes you should have notified them of your extra points. Three speeding fines is enough for a lot of insurers to withdraw cover.

That’s absolutely not true. You only need to inform them at renewal for anything less than an actual driving ban. It’s much the same as having an accident on a different car/policy. You have to tell them at renewal but it makes no difference to your current insurance.

This depends very much on company policy. Many insurers want to know of any accidents, claims or convictions ASAP, not just at renewal time. They calculate premiums based on risk, so material changes to risk part way through the year are something many companies want to know about. A 9 point driver is way riskier than a 3 point driver. Whilst the company must still cover third party costs throughout the policy period, a policyholder’s failure to declare an incident / conviction that increases insurer liability gives the company a way out from paying their own customer’s repair costs. Best check the small print.

Would they pro-rata any increase in premium as if you changed car? And if you’ve paid upfront? Has anyone here actually paid this? I’m with admiral (well Mrs TiRed is). I had also assumed it was at renewal time. Although I’ve never had a conviction or a speed awareness course requirement. Unlike the others on the policy.

I got three points many years ago.
I rang to tell them when I got them, and they said I should have told them as soon as I got the notice of intended prosecution! What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I mean, I was guilty, but they wouldn’t have known that until everything was done and dusted

My daughter just passed her test part way through the policy period. The risk goes up as she is still inexperienced but no longer under supervision. I drove her home from the test centre, informed the insurer, paid the extra and handed her the keys. Any material change to the driver or vehicle status (new occupation, penalty points, RTCs, increased annual mileage, change of address or parking spot; garage, driveway or street, non-standard parts; big alloys, exhaust, lowered springs, winter tyres, tints, fast food deliveries etc) needs to be declared. First thing the insurance assessor will look at is does the car / driver match the agreed risk / premium. Police can also access the Motor Insurers Database hotline to discuss stated use or declared modifications. Many a young buck’s slammed Corsa has been hoovered under RTA 165A legislation when their SDP policy didn’t cover delivering Lamb Karahis for the Taj Mahal.

It’s much the same as having an accident on a different car/policy. You have to tell them at renewal but it makes no difference to your current insurance.

Much the same indeed. You need to tell them as soon as possible after the collision.

Just checked my policy (LV=). Regarding convictions and FPNs, it says they have used DVLA records and specifically says there’s no need to tell them if anything changes, they will recheck DVLA at renewal.

So there’s no standard approach, just read your own policy.

sounds like one insurer or another did a quick compare of your details against the database, and the minor differences flagged, resulting in one insurer or another using it as an excuse to have a proper dig round and see if they can get out of paying each other on a technicality.

Sounds like combo of things, not reading policy wording for one, but i have always assumed penalty points need to be notified straight away.
Never give insurers an opportunity to get out of paying, inform them of everything, they will always tell you if they dont need the info.

Brings me back to my days working at quite a large insurance firm based in the south;

Guy phones up, notifies of speeding fine,
Me: Ok sir unfortunately theres a slight increase in the cost of the policy.
Cust: Really why?
Me: Well you’ve been caught speeding therefore you’re classed as a higher risk.
Cust: I dont speed
Me: But youve just notified me that you got caught speeding.
Cust: Yes but i dont speed.
Me: Ooookkkaaayyy

Good luck getting it sorted.

Even if you have failed to update them mid-term (and I would be surprised on a regular domestic policy – if it’s a trades van policy it might be more stringent) then they may still have to cover your claim. It also depends whether you are a consumer or not. Non-consumer policies (such as trade vehicle insurance) are more strict than consumer ones.

Assuming there is a provision which requires you to notify mid-term, it still depends on what they would have done had you confirmed the true position. If they would not have accepted the mid-term adjustment under any circumstances and they can show that your failure to disclose was deliberate or reckless, they may be able to avoid your policy.

However, if it was careless and the insurer would have accepted the risk on different terms (such as requiring payment of additional premium) then they will required to deal with the claim on those different terms, or reduce the amount of pay out to you commensurate with the proportion of premium increase.

I would be very surprised if on a consumer policy they look to avoid your policy for failure to declare points unless it’s something like 12 points or disqualification.

My insurer says that speeding convictions must be notified immediately, but probably wont be taken into account until remewal. Obviously lots of different approaches.

I have always been careful to inform of any changes – when I had a towbar fitted my insurance gave me a refund…

My wife got an NIP a few weeks before renewal time. I got quotes with and without an SP40, not that there was much difference. It was unresolved at the point of renewal so I put no convictions etc., and in due course she did a course. The insurers still asked for a DVLA check code for her, presumably because I’d got a quote with the endorsement as well as without, to check I hadn’t lied about it.

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Olly
Free Member

sounds like one insurer or another did a quick compare of your details against the database, and the minor differences flagged, resulting in one insurer or another using it as an excuse to have a proper dig round and see if they can get out of paying each other on a technicality.

2 additional driving offences are not “minor differences”

Best check the small print.

If we did that for every product or service we buy we’d need a 25th hour in every day. I think it seems incredibly harsh to penalise in that way, really they should just be asking for the difference in what the premium would have been if they’d declared it straight away. We all have enough of this shit to deal with in life that I don’t like being apologetic to corporations that are prepared to simply say read the small print closer.

Half the time you’d need a solicitor to understand what they put in them.

I agree but only up to a point

Yes, read the small prinit is impossible to do properly on everything, hence why I think we need to continue to push for clear user friendly Key Facts documents such as motor insurers are required to produce.

HOWEVER (and I said up to a point)

being done for two further driving offences on top of the one on your policy – not unreasonable to think that at that point you might recognise that could be something that the insurers need to know as clearly it’s likely to affect their view of your driving standards. At which point then clearly read the policy and or small print, or if still not clear give them a call and see if it needs informing.

Alternatively – “I’ve been done for speeding twice since taking my policy out, I haven’t checked if that needs to be told to the insurance co so I’ll carry on in blissful ignorance and then get annoyed if it turns out I should have….. ” nah, that’s not a tenable position in any sane world I can think of.

Of course nobody reads all the things they sign up for (this isn’t even small print, this is usually bloody big print). However, you should absolutely be making a point of reading over the documents for important things you’ve signed up for. Motor insurance being one of them