thekingisdead

Been cracked before.

To repeat another post: The argument seems to be that everybody else has had to put up with an erosion of conditions/pay at work, because that's how things are made efficient/profitable – so posties/firemen/whoever had better shut up.

Well beyond the thin end of the wedge.

Why do companies make profit? To pay shareholders. Don't make assumptions, I own plenty of shares, but I choose carefully. A fair share of profit should be seen to go back to the workers who earn it, not to managers who raise profits temporarily by shafting the workforce.

The health and well being of a nation requires people to be gainfully employed, taking pride in their work and feeling appreciated for it. Without that, you'd better pimp your handcart and head 'downstairs'

The union seems to be presuming that the general public have any kind of emotional attachment to the RM in the way they do to the NHS or the Army. We're all using email, we're in a hellish recession and frankly the general view in the real world is that post workers have been taking the p1ss for a long time.

Really fellas, you guys are painting yourselves into a corner here. We're about to have a public sector pay freeze for the next 2-5yrs and pensions are going to get sliced. Best thing you can do is try and keep Labour in power and this isn't the way to do it. Me I'm voting Tory or maybe Libdem in the hope they get to grips with the deficit which probably means taking a flamethrower to the RM and yes my beloved MoD.

The union seems to be presuming that the general public have any kind of emotional attachment to the RM

It is not a "presumption"……….. it is a recognition of fact.

All opinion polls show that the general public has a very strong attachment to a publicly owned Royal Mail.
That is precisely why Lord Mandelson shelved his plans to part privatise Royal Mail.

Don't believe the nonsense he claims were the reasons for shelving the plans. Yes, he's right when he claims "now isn't the right time to do it" but not because of the recession. But because New Labour are so deeply unpopular, that to push through a plan which the public strongly opposes, would contribute to electoral suicide.

Royal Mail part-privatisation shows public strongly opposed

Quote :

A PoliticsHome.com poll of its OpinionUK panel has delivered a resounding verdict to the question of where the general public stand on Peter Mandelson's plans for Royal Mail part-privatisation: 65% oppose the plans, only 24% support them.

Even Conservative voters, are opposed by a two to one majority to the part-privatisation of Royal Mail.

65% of voters oppose Mandelson's Royal Mail privatisation plan

I think you might be basing your presumptions mcboo, on the views of a few IT wallahs who are whingeing they've had to wait a couple of days for the shiny blingy bits ……. for their horrendously expensive and over-indulgent hobbies.

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we're in a hellish recession and frankly the general view in the real world is………

Exactly …….. we're in a recession. Unemployment is about to 2.5 million and climbing. So what's the most important thing we should be doing ? Saving jobs. Cutting services and throwing people out of work makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Unless of course, your name is Peter Mandelson. In which case, preparing the Royal Mail for privatisation to satisfy the needs of your multi-millionaire mates with which you sip cocktails on luxury yachts, is really rather important.

Shame he had misread the mood of the public and has had to at least temporarily, abandon his plans. Although the cuts in services and jobs will continue.

Unless of course ……. the unions are successful in their opposition.

Exactly …….. we're in a recession. Unemployment is about to 2.5 million and climbing. So what's the most important thing we should be doing ? Saving jobs. Cutting services and throwing people out of work makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Who's we (as in "we should be doing")?

Mandelson dropped the sell-off because there was no way a wounded Brown government could get it past the Labour backbenchers. Don't think there is much more to it than that.

I'm going to level with you and Postierich. I don't give a sh1t about your pay, working conditions or job security. I don't blame you for trying to hang onto what you have got so good luck to you but don't lets pretend we are all in this together. There is going to be a whole lot more of this when the next govnt gets to grips with the public sector so we better all get used to it.

Oh and the Royal Mail will be considered profitable when it has plugged the £5bn hole in the staff pension fund.

Frankly the Royal Mail is the last stand-off 'sell-off' Britain. Blame Thatcher , blame who ever you like. Fact is Labour has well and truly sold everyone down the river.

Mandelson will not sell off the RM he'll simply tinker at the edges and leave it useless and unprofitable and in the mean time give it away to some foreign power.

Labour have sold us all down the river – they've made peace with murderers, given our water to the French, (and the Nuclear industry) paid off the bankers and left us with the bill.

I've got to say, no matter about (some) of the inefficiencies of the RM the alternative is appalling. What next? Sell off the NHS?

I say don't believe the hype! I'm with Postierich on this one – Back the Royal Mail

back the royal mail – tick, agreed. only way to ensure a single price for all letters nationwide, sense of history.

back the unionised muppets who want to hold the country to ransom over yet another absurd pay demand? no.

theres a recession on, times are hard. deal with it.

frankly lets sack all the union members in RM. theres 4m unemployed at the moment, most of them qualified and experienced in every single skill required to deliver post. i'd say 50,000 of them will be willing to do so for 10-14k a year ote.

Amazing stuff, again, from the unions

As far as I see it the posties should be grateful for a job (and are paid way beyond their abilities) Or am I missing something that it's difficult to walk along a road and place envelopes into a hole in a door?

The posties are repeating what Scargill did in the 80's – I can't wait for Dave to get in power and crush the surviving unions

I have sat in on about 50 redundancies in recent months. Mostly good lads who have done nothing to deserve the shit they are in!! They are all to a man highly skilled machinists and toolmakers with skills that dwarf the average letter slotter. This strike makes me sick to my stomach and they will reap what they sow mark my words.

i don't have any sympathy for them

they don't give a flying shite about the problems they're causing for small businesses and the public

i've been waiting 8 days for important documents – someone paid for them to be delivered first class, they're just taking the piss. if you don't like your job do another job or start a business, but then that would take a bit of nouse and hard work.

my bro was a postie, always seemed to be moaning about finishing 'work' early but still wanting to be paid for the 2 hours he was sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle

ps – postierich is excused this rant

I don't give a sh1t about your pay, working conditions or job security

Thats nice. But doesn't really go far enough. If you had the guts to say it, you'd have said I'll argue for you to have WORSE pay, working conditions and job security. Which is frankly a despicable attitude, and one that I just don't understand.

I have sat in on about 50 redundancies in recent months.

So why does people fighting not to be made redundant make you sick?

So why does people fighting not to be made redundant make you sick?

Striking never achieved anything, ask the miners. If they are going to lose their jobs then nothing they can do will affect it. Striking just means they will potentially leave with less money in the bank. The union rep will be OK though as usual.

Striking seems to have been pretty successful for transport workers, no?

i don't have any sympathy for them, i've been waiting 8 days for important documents

Whilst I'm sure that you're documents are important, are they more important than someone elses job? As for your helpful suggestion that they should find another job or start a business. Had you not noticed the recession and the millions out of work?

This is getting boring. Not one person appears to be capable of explaining why people shouldn't be using ANY means neccessary to protect their jobs and working conditions. I've never had a union, but I would guarantee that everyone on here would be greatful for one if their job was threatened.

Not one person appears to be capable of explaining why people shouldn't be using ANY means neccessary to protect their jobs and working conditions.

OK, I'll have a go – because it's unrealistic not to expect things to change, and they'll only end up making things worse for themselves in the long term.

Did it do the miners any good?

mcboo – Member

Mandelson dropped the sell-off because there was no way a wounded Brown government could get it past the Labour backbenchers. Don't think there is much more to it than that.

You don't think there is much more to it than that ? Well there is more to it than that mate.

Lord Mandelson could easily count on the full support of Conservative MPs for his plans to sell off the most profitable bits of Royal Mail to the Dutch. Even if there had been a significant backbench revolt, the numbers were hugely stacked in Lord Mandelson's favour ….. but public opinion wasn't.

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aracer – Member

Who's we (as in "we should be doing")?

It's "we", as in "we as a society" should be saving jobs whilst the country is in the depths of a recession.

Would you have preferred if I had said 'the government and the unions' should be saving jobs whilst the country is in the depths of a recession ?

I have to say aracer, I'm surprised and slightly disappointed, that appears to be the best you could pull me up on. I would have expected better from you 😐

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iDave – Member

they don't give a flying shite about the problems they're causing for small businesses and the public

Actually imo it is precisely because the CWU is so obsessed with not causing too much inconvenience to small businesses and the public, that this dispute has dragged on for so long.

If the CWU hadn't pussyfooted around with pointless and totally ineffective one day strikes, and had instead, called for a national strike and clearly stated there would be no return to work until the dispute was resolved, then this dispute would have been resolved a very long time ago. In fact quite probably, within 3 or 4 days of it being called.

In reality the threat of an all out indefinite strike, would have quite likely made the need to actually go on strike unnecessary.

Unfortunately British trade unions these days have no bottle, and the government knows it……….. a French communication union would have quickly resolved this dispute.

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BTW mcboo, I am not a postman. Evidently you appear to assume that I am one, which betrays the fact that you presumably normally only associate with people who are short-sighted, gullible, and selfish.

I support the postal workers because I fully realise that they are fighting to defend my postal service, because I don't believe the lies told to me by Peter Mandelson and New Labour, and because I am happy to support others who are fighting to defend their industries and their jobs ……… despite the fact that it might not affect me directly.

Nice holiday, Ernie? Sure you said you were off and away.

Well Captain, someone told me to 'pack my shorts' ……… but they didn't tell me where I was going 😐

Striking never achieved anything

I think you will find that thats a ridiculous statement. The right to withdraw labour as well as orchestrated civil disobedience has possibly done more to improve the lot of the working man over the last century than anything else.
My favourite book is the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressell. I will loan you a copy with pleasure.
Having said all that I am not sure how much the current crop of postal workers have in common with those famous decorators of Mugsborough.

Did it do the miners any good?

The British coal industry was destroyed long after the miners had returned to work, despite the fact that it was clear they were unlikely to strike again.

Their industry was going to be shut down anyway, so they decided to go down fighting with the slogan
'Coal not Dole'.

The miners who didn't go on strike, ie the Notts miners, never saved their pits.

Despite all the worthless promises which were made to them

I think you will find that thats a ridiculous statement. The right to withdraw labour as well as orchestrated civil disobedience has possibly done more to improve the lot of the working man over the last century than anything else.

Maybe in days gone by and you can quote as many books to me as you like mate but I am living it now and I'll tel you that they achieve nothing. If you strike your name goes on the list! If you refuse to do overtime your name goes on the list! If you work to rule….. do I need to go on.

Maybe in days gone by and you can quote as many books to me as you like mate but I am living it now and I'll tel you that they achieve nothing.

Never mind about reading books RaveyDavey ……….. just read your newspaper in the here and now.

The Lindsey oil refinery workers dispute earlier this year, was a classic example of how successful a strike can be.

……. of course those hundreds of jobs would never have been saved if the strike hadn't escalated.
Pussyfooting around they did not.

Never mind about reading books RaveyDavey ……….. just read your newspaper in the here and now.

It won't make the news or the papers but I'll bet that the ones responsible for that won't have jobs this time next year. Senior management are ruthless bastards with no conscience. All they've done is bought themselves 12 months at best. Don't get me wrong here I am not right wing, I am stills hop floor and hate whats happening but you have to be realistic

Senior management are ruthless bastards with no conscience.

Yes, well that's a given. But do you really think they are prepared to risk another dispute ? 😯

The Lindsey oil refinery workers dispute really was a classic example of what can be achieved through workers coming out in solidarity with other workers, despite the financial losses to themselves.

Of course they were fully aware that they themselves, might in the future, need to rely on other workers to support them.

And btw, the unofficial strikes were totally illegal. Had they relied on only striking legally, then the strike would undoubtedly have failed.

And of course, it was a classic 'French style' strike 8)

Maybe in days gone by and you can quote as many books to me as you like mate but I am living it now and I'll tel you that they achieve nothing. If you strike your name goes on the list! If you refuse to do overtime your name goes on the list! If you work to rule….. do I need to go on.

But you said "striking never achieved anything" and as I said that is a ridiculous statement.
I accept your later points. I am not particularly taking issue with them and nor am I commenting on the Postal workers strike.
Historically striking has proved to be an effective method of bringing about change.
Ernie proves my point in more recent times ref the Linsey oil refinery workers.

They'll get them out by stealth. bring in new measures like the bradford factor and other bullshit. It won't be quick but they'll fall mark my words. I have to deal with this shit every day albeit with no union to protect us.

Whilst I'm sure that you're documents are important, are they more important than someone elses job?

no but maybe someone losing a job is more likely if they're shite at doing it?

BTW – i don't think the management are any better, they're (nearly) all short sighted protectionist vision-less jobsworth **** (maybe)

But you said "striking never achieved anything" and as I said that is a ridiculous statement.

I'm sure when they lose their jobs they'll take solace in the fact that the jarrow march achieved something but my point is that times have changed. In a global economic and employee market striking will ultimately achieve nothing.

I have to say aracer, I'm surprised and slightly disappointed, that appears to be the best you could pull me up on. I would have expected better from you

It's a combination of the fact I just can't be bothered, and that surprisingly enough I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying on this thread (so I'm reduced to picking on minor points 😉 )

In a global ………. employee market

You support a 'global employee market' ?

We are talking about human beings here, human beings with lives, families etc, not a piece of plant or machinery which can be moved around all over the globe as the market dictates.

You support a 'global employee market' ?

F*ck me!!! whether I support it or not (I don't) it's happening!! Some of you lot live in a bubble. Perhaps you need to get jobs in manufacturing industry before you come out with you neo socialist shite. Or are you going to deny that we now live in a free market economy, which by the way wasn't my idea.

I'm sure when they lose their jobs they'll take solace in the fact that the jarrow march achieved something but my point is that times have changed. In a global economic and employee market striking will ultimately achieve nothing.

Fortunately over the years people have taken a different view meaning you get the opportunity to preach self pity and in the meantim all of us benefit from improved working conditions and improved rates of pay.
Ultimately strikes have had incalculable benefits whether you recognize them or not.
Ultimately we can look back on the seismic changes that have come about as a direct result of them.
Ultimately you and I should be grateful for people who didnt stand around bins with "honk if you support us" banners but literally risked life and limb in their efforts to improve working conditions.

Ultimately you and I should be grateful for people who didnt stand around bins with "honk if you support us"

That's most picket lines out then..or are you agreeing with me…..or don't you know

Ultimately you and I should be grateful for people who didnt stand around bins with "honk if you support us" banners but literally risked life and limb in their efforts to improve working conditions.

You really should quote me fully.
Your point seems to be that striking is futile. My point is it is not and that both you and I have benefited from others sacrifices. I at least recognise these sacrifices. I am not sure how you can conclude I am agreeing with you.
You are clearly misunderstanding my point.

F*ck me!!! whether I support it or not (I don't) it's happening!! Some of you lot live in a bubble.

No, you appear to be living in a bubble. We don't have accept that human beings are just like any other bit of the 'global market' equation. And the Lindsey oil refinery workers dispute proves that point – it was precisely a dispute over workers being moved around like inanimate objects.

If the market isn't working in the interest of human beings, then it isn't working.

[/quote]You are clearly misunderstanding my point.

and you mine. you seem to have me down as some right wing upper management extremist. Believe me that is so far from the truth you couldn't be more wrong. As for sacrifices made for this country both myself and generations of my family have fought in every way to make it safe for us to live in.

If the market isn't working in the interest of human beings, then it isn't working.

I'll be honest now…….I couldn't give a shit for you or any of the other workers in that dispute. As long as i'm ok and my family the rest of you can go on burn 😀

you seem to have me down as some right wing upper management extremist.

I dont. I understood you were a shop floor worker but thats beside the point I simply took issue with your statement that strikes achieve nothing.

I couldn't give a shit for you or any of the other workers in that dispute. As long as i'm ok and my family the rest of you can go on burn

I'm not in the dispute comrade.

That attitude RaveyDavey, got us through our darkest hour during WW2, when the nation's future lay in the hands of The Few.

Oh please! Don't start trying to draw comparrisons between the nation's support for the efforts of brave people fighting against an aggressor in an actual war where people were being killed with the fact you (and a few others) think that us folk working in the real world should be standing side by side with the workers of a long overdue for a kick up the a@se industry, that seems pre-occupied with protecting their own jobs rather than providing a decent service, they are nothing alike.