Been following this op since the start and I cant believe how RM have handled the situation and the fact that they have the bottle to send your shock to auction makes the situation that much worse! But big a well done to Mojo!

Would it be worth contacting the auctioneers to see how willing they’d be to find it and return it to you (not via RM obviously)?

If they’re not willing, it might be worth advising them to hang onto it rather than auctioning it, in lieu of being investigated for handling stolen goods!

OP – why not reply to that email and ask them to explain why taking your property and passing it on for auction is not common theft? It’d be interesting to see their response…

Police time IMO. That is theft. Short of that, let’s get an industry fund and support Paul in suing them.
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Bye Royal Mail for me. We have alternative here, and pick up point is corner shop so closer.
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If they refuse to carry it, surely they at the very least could say ‘it is sat in x sorting office, you have a fortnight’ before selling on for profit?

I expect that the legality aspect of them selling off dangerous goods has been looked into already (though it is worth checking).

The issue here is that it’s not actually dangerous but simply breaches their terms. The question then is what legal position you’re in there. Did you accept their terms? Are their terms legal?

Good reply PG.

I’ve been following this with interest and am as amazed as everyone else that they think they can just get away with doing this!

I’ve linked to the article on the front page from my FB page (https://www.facebook.com/mountainbikerides to help spread the word. If I can help with anything else there – please let me know?

#royalfail

at least now you’ve got a shock coming from Mojo you basically have ‘Nothing to lose’ and can be as loud, shouty, and vindictive as you like to the media 🙂

Quite often, what’s “legal” is down to interpretation until someone actually tests it in court. Just because someone in legal at Royal Mail thinks they can get away with this, doesn’t make it so.

Police, Trading Standards and MP would be my next port of call. Also agree that you should contact someone at the auction house and explain that this item may well feature in future investigations so it might be in their best interests to hold it rather than auction it off.

Outrageous. I also can’t help noticing the irony of the item’s almost immediate dispatch down to be sold on to fund Royal Mail operations, compared with their normally shoddy parcels service.

Personally, I’d report it to the police as theft now, get a number, regardless of whether or not they take action (probably won’t), and pass that information onto your friend in the CEOs office.

Those police details will also help media outlets pick up the story – ‘man reports Royal Mail for theft after valuable goods are deemed ‘dangerous’ and sent for auction’. I’m sure cycling media/shock servicing companies would be available for comment.

Small Claims using the lack of T&Cs presented at the post office/unreasonable t&cs is the most likely route for a win though.

Have spoken with the auction house. They couldn’t tell me when they get deliveries from RM, they couldn’t tell me whether it would be sold as a job lot or individual item, it may or may not be auctioned online as well as in the auction site. Not much info really…

Why would they bite the hand that feeds…?

Id get onto the daily mail, they love a good RM bashing, although now its privatised will they?

I think you are handling it all rather well PG -and big up Mojo too

Heres a good point:

Subject to various statutory constraints unlikely to apply here, parties to a contract can agree whatever they like. The only argument against Royal Mail implementing its contractual terms is that the term in question is onerous or unusual and so should be specifically drawn to the attention of the customer, but that argument will likely fail if the customer has clicked the “I agree” button on a website or when filling in a form at the counter. This is a modern equivalent of L’Estrange v F Graucob Ltd [1934] 2 KB 394.

If the term is not pointed out to the customer, then arguably it does not apply, and Royal Mail will be liable for converting (ie appropriating) the goods.

Surely this is your property and by selling it the auction house is illegally selling it? Report them to the Police for handling stolen goods?

Why don’t the Royal mail send people a letter telling them to collect their good from the depot by such and such a date or they will be disposed of? Yes they will get lots of people turning up for parcels but that is the only way I can see they should be doing it.

I can’t quite believe that response from RM. So you send something thats perfectly safe and hundreds/thousands of similar items must go via RM each and every day.

Instead of either returning it to sender etc, they pass it to an auction house to sell?

Absolutely unbelievable. Your response to their last note is absolutely perfect though. As someone else has said, thanks to Mojo’s generosity and RM’s reluctance/inability to return the shock you’re evens. So get it viral, social media it to death, get in touch with all the magazines, shock/tuning companies, big mail order companies etc. Someone with some clout (CRC/Wiggle) needs to voice their concerns to RM and the absolute shower of sh*t service they provide. It was bad before but now….. Holy crap. I’m shocked (no pun intended).

I have emailed the Guardian consumer section with a link to this thread and asked if they have heard of similar things outside the cycling niche.

Profiting from theft, sorry confiscation, Royal Mail seem like pirates, well privateers if they are keeping the Royal part of their name.

The gesture by MoJo is outstanding! Can not beat people like that! Incredible.

Also, RM are shocking. A couple months back I was posting alot of bike parts, forks, chainrings, other bits etc, and out of about 8 parcels, posted across a few days / a week. I was only asked what was in the package twice, and even then nothing was explained to me about why they asked. Just “security checks”.

The terms and conditions that have been posted on here would also forbid the transport of bike tubes, tennis balls, footballs (inflated or not), pressure cookers(??) and is so vague in its definition that it surely must fall foul of unfair contract terms law?

Also, it appears they know the location of the item (either at the auction house or a RM warehouse) – now, I’d imagine that if you’d to go to the auctionhouse on the day of the auction you’d be more than entitled to take receipt of your goods.

RM can refuse to transport, they can even refuse you access to their premises, but I can’t see how they can simply say “We’re having this, your goods are now our goods” That makes NO sense. And must be illegal. I’d be at the auctionhouse accompanied by PC Plod. I’d also be tempted to inquire about the possibility of a court mandated order to return your goods given they clearly know where they are.

RM cannot simply take ownership of your goods.

I wonder if there’s an angle here with the auction house.

Now that the original poster has had confirmation that his property has been passed to the auction house, the said auction house are effectively selling on property to which they have no legal title.

If the original poster makes them aware of this in writing, there’s a good chance that due legal process can be followed to deal with the auctioneers knowingly selling on goods that they have no title to.

This made for interesting reading:

Under the terms of trade with our major business customers, if the mail is not delivered then it will be securely disposed of unless a return address is included on the envelope. This has been the practice for many years. The mail which cannot be delivered or returned is stored for up to four months. If an item is not claimed, it is put out to auction. All the
proceeds, minus a market rate commission for the auction house,
are used to partially pay the considerable cost involved in seeking
to reunite customers with their items.

However, if an item is not claimed, and we
can find no address to which to return it,
and the item has some value, we put it out
to auction

It would seem that in the OP’s case it would be worth asking what that money will then go towards as no effort was made to contact the OP in the first instance.

As RM are subject to FOI (as I understand it) it might be worth asking:

➡ How many items they confiscate in the manner annually
➡ What the amount is they receive back from the auction house?

Good on Mojo.

If they refuse to transport your shock, how did they get it to the auction house?

It would also suggest that the decision regarding disposal is made in Belfast. Seems along way to ship a “dangerous” item only to then ship it on!

Wellers Auctioneers have a facebook page. I might ask if they have any Kashima Fox shocks…and link to this thread!

Might be worth mentioning to Wellers that this could very easily turn into the mother of all media shit storms and ask them which side of the fence they’d like to be on.

Just spoken to the Police. They seemed to think it was not a case of theft or handling stolen goods but it was regarded as a business transaction and that I should consult legal advice or Ofcom should I wish to pursue it further.

Have just added Ofcom to my list to contact.

Sadly I think the only way they will change those crap Ts&Cs is of they are challenged in a court of law. If it were me I’d go down the small claims route…and name both Royal Mail and the Auction house. I appreciate the OP might not want to bother with the cost and hassle

This document from the RM website for yr 2012/2013 (its a short read but big numbers)… shows the scale of complaints and compensation they are paying.

Just spoken to the Police. They seemed to think it was not a case of theft or handling stolen goods but it was regarded as a business transaction and that I should consult legal advice or Ofcom should I wish to pursue it further.

Have just added Ofcom to my list to contact.

Good, I hope you get somewhere with them. I can’t see how it’s anything other than theft.

BTW, I’m planning on heading down to the auction to see what’s there, If you email me any info about your shock, I’ll keep an eye out for it and see if it’s made it’s way there.

Depending on who you spoke to at the police, they may not have a full understanding of the law. I’ve contacted them about highway obstruction where they tried to tell me it was the duty of the local authority. It wasn’t, and going further up the chain got the correct response. The police enforce the law but given how many laws and the complexities of them, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect them to know them all, inside out.

Having said that, I’m not claiming to know more, they could be right, I’m just saying, don’t take their first response as gospel.

I have contacted Wellers again via facebook and explained that an item they will auction will be subject to a legal investigation and media campaign. I have invited them to discuss it with me.

Notmyrealname
it’s a Fox Float CTB Boost Valve Trail adjust with kashima. 190 eye to eye with 50mm stroke. same as this: http://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=bike&t=shocks&p=99103&ref=filter

If you manage to get it and can return it to me, i’ll sort you out for your time and expense etc. I’ll then return the Mojo gifted shock back to Mojo.

Gone to your MP yet? If they decide to adopt this issue, they can be surprisingly influential. When they start asking, hard and fast rules suddenly get a bit more pliable. Might even get it posted back to you.

Notmyrealname
it’s a Fox Float CTB Boost Valve Trail adjust with kashima. 190 eye to eye with 50mm stroke. same as this: http://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=bike&t=shocks&p=99103&ref=filter

If you manage to get it and can return it to me, i’ll sort you out for your time and expense etc. I’ll then return the Mojo gifted shock back to Mojo.

No problem. I’m going to head there for the viewing on the Monday afternoon and possibly head to the auction if there’s anything of interest there 😀

I find the most recent response from Royal Mail absolutely astonishing!

Having said that the item had been destroyed and disposed of, they are now saying that actually it has been sent to an auctioneer to sell!

That can’t be anything other than theft and Wellers Auctions of Chertsey are surely handling stolen goods.

If a courier service was on a whim selling off packages they were supposed to deliver all hell would break loose, yet Royal Mail can seemingly do as they please.

I’ll be avoiding using Royal Mail for both business and personal use for all but small low value items.

I have to applaud the OP’s restraint and maturity plus a massive thumbs up to Mojo for their amazingly generous gesture.

Because the product is charged by filling with compressed air and whether it is full or not it is deemed a prohibited item under the above guidelines.

Bugger. Just sent some empty balloons with a Christmas pressie.
Seriously though, where do you draw the line?

I hope Wellers or RM are not pulling up the drawbridge by the plans to view and reclaim…

Maybe the OP and Notmyrealname should take their actions offline and report beack later…

Rick, makes no difference if I get it back or not. The fine folks at Mojo are ensuring i’m not without a shock.

If RM or Wellers take action based on this thread then that would be admitting some kind of liability.

As far as i’m concerned, keep it public and honest.

This is serious, Our local sorting office was nearly destroyed by an accident with a bicycle pump. Pressurised containers, pressurised or not can be terrible things.

Paul
where in the country are you??

I have to say I won’t be using Royal Mail again. I’d sent my Vanilla RC to Loco for a service a few months ago and it sat in the sorting office for a week, I don’t think they could be bothered to deliver it.
Useless muppets…

I’m still convinced that the way forward here is that their terms and conditions are unfair, in breach of fair trading laws

to form a contract requires agreement and understanding from both parties. Had you understood the contract terms i suspect you wouldn’t have agreed to them…