Molgrips, I’ve used some cycle paths in Germany, they’re great.

Some are good, some are not. But I still got shouted at for not using them… at 25mph…

I got shouted at a couple of weeks ago, for not using a cycle path in Nottingham…that’s been dug up to install tram lines… 😯

I have just taken up road riding to compliment my MTB and XC racing and find it a lot more tricky, more due tothe wet weather, wind and big hills, but the back lanes round Wrexham/Mold are great, especially at 5am on a Sunday. It does seem to be the obligatory BMW driver who trys to see how close to your elbow he can pass you, even if you are going DH around a right hander at 45-50mph, that is scary, especially when you cant hear them coming.

molgrips, aren’t bikes banned from many roads in Germany? ..not wising to fuel the ‘if we have paths we’ll be forced off the roads’ argument.. I remember being suprised at how UK-like German drivers were until I was told bikes weren’t meant to be on those relatively minor roads.

I have no idea why people cycle the dual carriage way, when there is the shorter, flatter, quieter road that goes through the town which the bypass replaced.

It is very easy to get lost in the centre of a unfamiliar town, and when every sign post points you to the bypass, sometime you can end up on it for a time until you get back on route. Its happened to me before and its very annoying as I hate riding on main road out of town but when you’re not local its easy to get pushed that way.

molgrips, aren’t bikes banned from many roads in Germany?

Well I researched this when I was there a couple of years ago. The law says that if there is a sign designating a cycle path then you must use it. However, the federal govt ruled that the states had not acted within the spirit of the law by putting cyclepath signs up absoutely everywhere there was a path of any kind (which is most places, even out in the countryside) thereby forcing bikes off the road, which effectively rendered the signs impotent.

I used them where it made sense, to dodge hectic road junctions (which was the original aim of the legislation – to keep bikes out of difficult car junctions for their own safety) and then popped onto the road when out in the sticks. To be fair I only got shouted at a few times in the winter when it was dark.

I worked out some risk for a lecture I’m giving in a couple of weeks. Commuting 35 km for 200 days a year, gives a risk of 25 deaths per 100000 participants. Compares to 78 deaths for motorcycling, or 2.3 driving the same journey. Other activities swimming=1.8, skydiving=1, smoking 20 a day=100, giving birth=8.3, coronary bypass graft=4000. Of course none of these stats take any account of the benefits that some of the activities may offer.

My personal tally over the last 20 years is on the road, I’ve been hit by cars three times, resulting in minor bruises. I’ve been to a&e twice from mtb crashes, with one broken bone and one cut. Countless bruises from the mtb.

I worked out some risk for a lecture I’m giving in a couple of weeks. Commuting 35 km for 200 days a year, gives a risk of 25 deaths per 100000 participants.

So I could commute for 4000 years before being killed. Sounds fairly safe then.

I’ve been racing MTBs since 1999, and racing (TTs anyway) on the raod since 2003.
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In that time I have seen 2 ambulances in road events (one incident, two riders hit each other, no car involved) and two other ambulances not in races (one rider down on the ice, one hurt in rider-rider contact), so that’s 4 hospital cases in 10 years.
I have lost count how many air-ambulances, never mind normal ones, I have seen at MTB races. My former team-mate has been in one twice! I wasn’t at the last NPS on the Olympic course but I was told there were 20 broken bones that weekend.
Road riding is far safer. However, I think the risks are different, on an MTB I pretty much control the risk, on the road I am relying on other people not to **** up too.

It does seem to be the obligatory BMW driver who trys to see how close to your elbow he can pass you, even if you are going DH around a right hander at 45-50mph, that is scary, especially when you cant hear them coming

Jeez, that sounds dangerous enough without the car bit ! I rarely go at that speed on the road, and only in dry good visibility situations, but maybe that’s just me…

I think another problem bikes have, taking up iain c’s comment above, is the variety of speeds we do.
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On an A road for example, a slow car will dither along at 40mph. A fast one will be doing 80mph. Speed difference of 100%.
A slow bike, maybe a new rider on a shopping trip, will be doing 6mph. A rider in a time-trial can easily push 30mph on the flat. Speed difference 500%.
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Drivers haven’t yet figured out how to tell which is which when pulling out of side roads etc, they are used to bike pootling along at single figure speeds and think they have plenty of time to pull out/overtake/etc then realise the bike was actually doing 25mph and they’ve got it wrong

I did stop riding on the road a few years back despite having done so for many years, got fed up with the number of close passes on busy and non busy roads. Started again after friends wanted to do some long distance rides and I just promised myself to be selective on what I choose to ride.

Think I can deal OK with the stupidity of the school run and the commuter its the couldn’t care less I’m not sure if I can be bothered to even try and give you room drivers that get me and the nutters
One in each category this week today suburban road with speed islands – look back car at least 50m back I’m probably doing 20mph, take prime position – 10seconds later he’s on my tail revving his engine hard – he had to accelerate hard so he could be deliberately aggressive. Out of town quiet but fast road, truck driver just blasts away on horn as passes closer than needed – plenty of room for both of us and no bend or oncoming – pass him unlocking building site gate 2miles up road ‘I hate f….king cyclists’ scum of the earth, should n’t be on the road ‘ its the aggression that worries me as it is hard to predict or see it coming

Double post

I’d love to get into road riding. The idea of the speed vs effort is very appealing! However, the number of tales of people getting hurt and worse while out and about really puts me off. This is, I know, only my perception, and many people have years of safe riding (my Dad being one!)

There are risks with off-road riding, but they are, in the whole, under my control. Apart from the occasional errant sheep or psyco lapwing, anything untoward that happens is probably down to my stuff up.

I sense it getting a little safer, due to the larger numbers riding?
It used to be ‘bloody cyclists’ said in anger. Now it’s ‘bloody cyclists’ said with a hint of acceptance.
In forty years of serious riding on the road I’ve been hit once, and a minor one by a very very old man in a very old camper going very slowly.
I’ve not lost anyone, but know of two lost in TT’s.
On the other hand mountainbiking has left one friend in hospital getting on for two years, another struggling to walk. Accidents on MTB’s seem cool and something to boast about, something to print pictures of, look at me I’m a dick woohoo. Some of these people ride on the road.
But I do feel safer in general. That said the worst part of my ride is in the town I live where they’ve introduced things to help cyclists. The concensus says it’s made things worse.

Been commuting via bike for the last two weeks, all the rain last night has made my usual path along the river bloody wet and horrible so going to try the main road this morning, wish me luck!

I sense it getting a little safer, due to the larger numbers riding?

Have to say, that’s been my experience too. I’d actually say I feel safer on the roads now than I have previously.

Maybe I just live in a cycle friendly part of the country though.

As I see it it is all about personal perception. Our personal experiences actually tell us very little about how safe or otherwise cycling on the road is. I have certainly had the odd close pass and occasional road rage but on the whole I find road cycling to be an acceptably safe activity – but that is my perception.

I dont feel unsafe on the road at all even after 35 years of road riding .That includes lots of dual carriageway riding in timetrials .I do think you need to be assertive on the roads with eye contact and making sure your lane discipline is good ,clear signalling and using all the lane if its not safe to pass .I can see how some people can feel intimidated though

I have certainly had the odd close pass and occasional road rage but on the whole I find road cycling to be an acceptably safe activity – but that is my perception.

Yep, exactly the same here. I read abouyt all the scare stories on Singletrack and a few other fora and think “That’s not what happens to me”. Weird considering the mileage and variety of locations I cycle in.

Only if you accept that the stats are an accurate reflection of risk…

The stats are required to calculate risk as risk is assessed from the hazard and likelihood of injury and it’s seriousness. If you ignore the stats you can not calculate risk.

I have no idea why people cycle the dual carriage way, when there is the shorter, flatter, quieter road that goes through the town which the bypass replaced.

Same reasons that people in cars use them:

It’s Often a quicker route, unimpeded by so many sets of lights or roundabouts / junctions, and of course there is no legal reason cyclists are not allowed on them…

TBH if I have to be home in a proper hurry on my bike then the most direct route takes in a stretch of NSL dual carriageway, and the joys of dancing with traffic across M4-J12 and can* save me ~8 minutes, and I do still use it on occasion, but my general preference now is to go an extra ~2 miles on a more scenic, queiter route…

*doesn’t always though…

The quiet route is less stressful and more pleasant, but I still don’t like the idea that bikes should be bullied off of perfectly legal rights of way just because “the car is King” mentality prevails. Bicycles are Road traffic and belong on the roads (the obvious exception being motorways).

As for the whole “Cycle Lanes” and “Cycle Paths” I make a personal distinction which works for me:

Cycle lanes – lanes for bicycles on the Road, treat the bike / cyclist as a vehicle with the same rights and responsibilities, including right of way over traffic emerging from side junctions, and the obligation observe lights and yield at give way signs etc. They are to be used by cyclists who are confident enough to ride on the road, they really only exist to provide a bit of space for cyclists and generally only get painted where the road was already wide enough to accommodate them.

Cycle Paths – an optional cycle path painted on the pavement, treat the bike / cyclist more as a “wheeled Pedestrian”. Only use these if you are willing to moderate your speed down to accommodate pedestrians (I think a speed limit of 10mph should really be applied on these TBH) and dog walkers, primarily intended for inexperienced, nervous cyclists and families / children, the key point here is that where a cycle path crosses the roads the user is expected to behave like a pedestrian, i.e. give way to traffic where they cross junctions.

Like I say that my take on the two and I know that’s probably not the HWC or legal definitions but it makes perfect sense to me.

IMO Cycle lanes might as well not be there, they are simply an illustration for Drivers that the road is wide enough to safely pass and to the cyclist on what is an “Acceptable” distance to ride out from the pavement (or at least what the designer / line painter believed these to be), if a driver or cyclist can’t judge the width of the road, or their position on it, then they shouldn’t be on the road.

Cycle Paths are a good way to enable those not confident in traffic to get about on a bicycle, but they do increase the risk to Peds’ if used at speed, and they should not be used simply to manage bicyles off of the road to placate arsey drivers, if a rider is confident on a bike and can comfortably chop along at 16 – 25 mph then they should be on the road IMO (whatever lane they choose to use)…

I do think there should be some better defined, clearer guidance for all on the use of pavement level, cycle paths, and the fact that cyclists are not compelled to use them… It won’t stop the “Get in the cycle lane!” brigade shouting but will clarify things for the sane majority…

All IMO of course.

The quiet route is less stressful and more pleasant, but I still don’t like the idea that bikes should be bullied off of perfectly legal rights of way just because “the car is King” mentality prevails. Bicycles are Road traffic and belong on the roads (the obvious exception being motorways).

Why is a motorway an obvious exception? There’s no difference between a dual carriageway and a motorway other than an arbitrary label.

If you ignore the stats you can not calculate risk.

That’s not true at all.

@pypdjl – how do you calculate anything without numbers?

Why is a motorway an obvious exception? There’s no difference between a dual carriageway and a motorway other than an arbitrary label.

first clue is in the name Motorway, legaally bicycles are not allowed on motorways, and their function is incrementally different…

A Motorway is intended to facilitate large volumes of motorized traffic, there are no traffic lights or roundabouts they are inteneded to achieve maximum flow by removing a few of the features that would require drivers to slow down / hesitate.

A dual carriage way is simply an “upgraded” trunk route, given an additional lane and an extra 10mph (in some instances) to aliviate a potential pinch point in the local traffic system, but they are still subject to most of the same features and furniture that you would find on a single carriageway road that requires drivers to periodically slow / stop including the potential presence of bicyles…

You should still be reading the road ahead and be prepared to slow / stop on NSL-DCW in the same manner as you would on a NSL-SCW the same potential hazards are still present, MWs are intended to remove a few of those hazards, to keep drivers confident and maintain throughput…

If you think about it driving on a Motorway and driving on a dual carriage way are, and should be, a wee bit different, and it’s not just about speed.

Isn’t some drivers attitudes to cyclists on the road just a reflection of changes in societies thinking.
Sports players win because they are aggressive.To get to the top in business you need to be ruthless and aggressive.Even advertising can be aggressive.And how about computer games.
I’m the only one that counts and nobody will stand in my way getting what i want.I won’t back down or give way.
We see road rage just over a parking space so it follows that cyclists will be targeted as well.

Why is a motorway an obvious exception? There’s no difference between a dual carriageway and a motorway other than an arbitrary label

Motorways are specified differently to DCs, and have different rules, to give fewer obstructions and things for which to look out.

I think the issue around road rage is stress. Modern life is much more hectic, and people don’t deal with it well. I bet cortisol levels in the average population have gone through the roof in 50 years.

first clue is in the name Motorway, legaally bicycles are not allowed on motorways, and their function is incrementally different…

Lets campaign to make it legal to ride on motorways then.

Or we could just ban bikes from dual carriageways. Obviously you’d be fine with that as it would then be illegal to ride on them and no longer an issue, and their function is incrementally different. Obviously.

joeegg – Member
Isn’t some drivers attitudes to cyclists on the road just a reflection of changes in societies thinking.
Sports players win because they are aggressive.To get to the top in business you need to be ruthless and aggressive.Even advertising can be aggressive.And how about computer games.
I’m the only one that counts and nobody will stand in my way getting what i want.I won’t back down or give way.
We see road rage just over a parking space so it follows that cyclists will be targeted as well.

Agree totally, I saw a new Allianz car insurance ad last night that shows the school run as a race, complete with a starting grid and a “comical Dad on a bicycle” for good measure, it’s a reflection of the prevailing culture and attitudes, everything is seen as being about competition and aggression…

Or we could just ban bikes from dual carriageways

That’s currently done discretionally.

Lets campaign to make it legal to ride on motorways then.

Or we could just ban bikes from dual carriageways. Obviously you’d be fine with that as it would then be illegal to ride on them and no longer an issue, and their function is incrementally different. Obviously.

If you like, you start your petition and I’ll wholeheartedly ignore it…

TBH there’s nothing wrong with the rules as they stand in this respect, only motorized vehicles are alloowed on motorways, and it’s entirely your choice to cycle on or circumvent using a DCW.

My point is, some seem to think cyclists should voluntarily give up a right of way to keep drivers sweet…

like I said I have in effect allowed myself to be bullied off of such roads to a degree, but to simply cave in and accept greater limitations on the routes a bicycle can be used on because cyclists legal rights are at odds with the current prevailing car culture, thin end of the wedge IMO…

Bit off topic though now aren’t we… sorry

I usually avoid riding on roads as much as possible.
I avoided a footpath today because it is so overgrown I have to get off and push.
I suppose in both cases I have been bullied off the most direct route as some would put it.

I know the statistics say that on average cyclists live longer because the 100 cyclists not dying of a heart attack at 40 outweigh the one getting run over at 20, but I can’t help listening to every car that comes up behind me wondering if it’s the one that’s going to kill me.

When this subject came up previously, someone mentioned that if public roads were covered by the HSE, they would be shut down immediately.
Go to any building site, factory or warehouse and they do their best to segregate pedestrian and other traffic. 5mph speed limits and a permanent lifetime ban for anyone who breaks the rules.

I like the idea of more cyclists on the road making a better case for more provision for cyclists, but when will it happen ?
How many more thousands of cyclists have to get killed before the police start taking aggressive motoring seriously and councils start designing proper junctions ?

OP – no I haven’t given up riding on the road. Nor will I.

I don’t get it – people have car crashes, and drive again; the tube got blown up, but people still travel on it. Many of the women I work are overweight, some smoke, very few exercise – yet they view my riding to work as dangerous! When actually they face far worse danger to their health.

Perception of danger is different from presence of danger. I think there IS risk in riding on the road, but that risk can (a) be managed down by riding assertively (that’s assertive, not aggressive) and (b) viewed in context of the risk associated with not exercising – plus the benefits: enjoyment, saving money (using bicycle to get to work), socialising, making endorphins (painkillers/mood enhancers), empowerment (planning a scary long ride and then doing it).

I think cycle paths have their place, but mostly we’ve just got to learn to share the roads. Roads are a shared resource.

On the other hand, I get why motorists are so angry. Tax, tax, tax, tax. It’s very expensive. Successive governments use car owners as a handy form of revenue and dress the taxation up in various ways (congestion/pollution) when actually it’s just a good way of making money.

The government could do a lot to help cyclists by making it clear that VED is just another tax … and nothing to do with any ‘right’ to use the roads.