Road discs – A bit of a random musing….

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  • Road discs – A bit of a random musing….
  • 5thElefant
    Member

    They’re not sanctioned for race use yet.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    They’re not sanctioned for race use yet.

    And what tiny % of road bikes get raced?

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    It sure why not but it’s pleasing to see road bikes at eurobike with hydro discs. Very surprised not to see one from trek though.

    mrmo
    Member

    Why doesn’t this seem to be happening at all in the road world? OK, so brake/frame design might preclude it in some cases, and perhaps it’s a weight thing, but surely it makes sense for many/most bikes?

    who makes discs, who doesn’t, so new no one actually nows what the standards are, re rear hub width. Lots of Roadies not convinced, nowhere near the same level of upgraditist. ( except wheels and things that make you go fast)

    Discs still banned on race bikes so no point.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Can you really see the average golfer new roadie having uneccessary lugs for discs on their bikes?

    Good Lord no.

    They want to look exactly like that Bradley Cavendish as they parade round the latest Spurtive, throwing gel wrappers at sheep.

    5thElefant
    Member

    And what tiny % of road bikes get raced?

    A round number? About zero.

    Generally technology trickles down from the top models and dictate the current fashion.

    Discs won’t be mainstream until racers use them.

    Disc won’t be mainstream until racers use them.

    To counter that, in the early days of MTB discs, racers were vehemently against them, it was recreational/trail riders who drove it primarily. Helped in part by the huck-it years of DH loonz, I suppose. Either way, I don’t believe it was racing that drove the demand. (Was in the bike trade at the time, I should add!)

    cynic-al
    Member

    Rusty…LOLercrafts at your post, you cheapskate Carradice must-have! 😛

    5thElefant
    Member

    Mountain biking was anti-establishment in it’s early, pre-middle aged it manager, days. Cycling isn’t.

    I have discs on my road bike by-the-way.

    Jamie
    Member

    And what tiny % of road bikes get raced?

    Sportives are races, right?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    They were very obviously a step forward in mountain biking

    “Look how I come to stop…with no sphincter clasping moments”

    no need on a roadie when as Rusty points out: you’re doing 10mph (at best*)

    *as an aside, if you are going to go that slowly, please be a good chap and try not weave quite so very much….)

    boxfish
    Member

    Eurobike 2013 road disc gallery

    EDIT: just some pictures…not trying to make any point at all 🙄

    Premier Icon curiousyellow
    Subscriber

    throwing gel wrappers at sheep.

    Hahaha!

    You’d be annoyed if tubeless rims came round at the same time disc brakes went mainstream wouldn’t you? Would mean you’d be stuck with discs only when you could have justified discs AND a new wheelset to the missus.

    Haze
    Member

    Not required…ride smooth, look ahead and brake light.

    Boxfish, rather missing the point here, I’m talking about non-disc bikes being made “disc ready”. And yes, I get the “no standards” thing, but I believe SRAM and Shimano are both on the same hub/rotor mounting standard, Campy as well, perhaps. (Am willing to be proved wrong, of course!)

    remoterob
    Member

    Disc ready would be low end bikes, if it happened.

    No-one on expensive machinery would tolerate the sight of unbolted brake bosses or the sight / weight of a rim with a braking surface being used with a disc brake system.

    I still just don’t see the point, unlike offroad there’s no mud. Fine on a winter bike for day after day in the rain, but I just don’t see the point on a ‘raceing’*, calliper brakes have enough power to throw me over the bars (and it’s not like arm pump is an issue either), so why try harder?

    They were very obviously a step forward in mountain biking

    “Look how I come to stop…with no sphincter clasping moments”

    Thank god Avid came along and brought back the whole will they/wont they feature with the juicy’s/elixirs.

    You’d be annoyed if tubeless rims came round at the same time disc brakes went mainstream wouldn’t you? Would mean you’d be stuck with discs only when you could have justified discs AND a new wheelset to the missus.

    Pretty much all wheels seem to be tubeless now?

    *ok, hardly any bikes are raced, but then neither are many cars, but people still buy mx-5’s.

    IanW
    Member

    Im with haze on this one, theres less of an advatage on the road. Braking is generally a failure best avoided at all costs.

    aP
    Member

    I’ve been riding a disc’d road bike for the last 3 years, its ok but nothing to write home about, the main advantage is that the rims don’t get covered in rim/brake paste in the wet.

    brooess
    Member

    My view:
    1. The benefit of discs on a road bike compared to well set-up cantis is less obvious than the move from V’s to discs on MTB – whether we need discs or not is not a conversation I’ve ever had with any of my clubmates – we’re quite happy with what we’ve got, it all works fine. Same with electronic shifting. Even the most kit-obsessed are quite happy with mechanical.
    2. Weight matters on a road bike. Lots.
    3.

    No-one on expensive machinery would tolerate the sight of unbolted brake bosses or the sight / weight of a rim with a braking surface being used with a disc brake system.

    aesthetics matters on a road bike much more than MTB
    4. I think generally, road riding culture is much less ‘must have the latest’ tech than MTB. Respect is generally given to the strongest riders, not those with the fanciest kit. I like that honesty/lack of bull about road riding

    5thElefant
    Member

    aesthetics matters on a road bike much more than MTB

    I don’t doubt you’re right, but I really don’t get it. All road bikes are two triangles, two wheels and some absurd looking handlebars. Unchanged for a hundred years. How the hell can aesthetics comes into it? Colour maybe

    Edit: I’ve answered my own question haven’t I. Anything that would look out of place in a 100 year old photo breaks the aesthetic.

    crikey
    Member

    Perhaps another issue is that disc brakes on road bikes require a disc specific fork. On mountain bikes this is not such an issue, but on a road bike, beefing up the fork to maybe run discs is not yet at the stage where it’s considered an OK thing to do.

    The other issue that I would be concerned about is that the contact patch on road tyres is pretty easy to overwhelm with a more powerful brake; crap (in comparison…) road brakes are well matched with small contact patches and slick tyres. Stick super brakes on and you transfer the weakest link to the tyre rather than the brake/tyre combo.

    I think discs will take over, but other than the wearing out your rims and black brake mess, they will not be as much of a performance advantage as in mountain biking.

    When racing, we used to run the rear brake set super slack, so that panic grab in the middle of a bunch didn’t wear a flat spot on your £40 tyre on the rear…

    tang
    Member

    [/url] image by tangwyn, on Flickr[/img]

    I’m running cable actuated hydros on my cx bike, I likes them. Reckon it will come eventually on the pro peloton.

    MrSparkle
    Member

    tang – Hy/Rd’s? where d’ya get ’em?

    When discs started to take off properly in MTB, pretty much every manufacturer made bikes/frames that were “disc ready”, some going further and speccing bikes with disc hubs, but Vs handling the stoppiness.

    This seemed at the time to be a very good idea. Future proofing, and allowing the buyer to gradually upgrade. Maybe an end at a time, for example.

    Why doesn’t this seem to be happening at all in the road world? OK, so brake/frame design might preclude it in some cases, and perhaps it’s a weight thing, but surely it makes sense for many/most bikes?

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Unless you’re a fool, you want to be able to stop properly.

    Weight?
    Not an issue for the majority of us who don’t race.
    Those anally retentive weight weenies who care enough will just spend yet more money in order to compensate, or stick with calipers.
    No problem.

    Aesthetics?
    You got used to compact frames, metal wheels, cables instead of rods, hydroforming, bladed spokes etc etc.
    You’ll live.

    Roadie Culture?
    Oh please give it a rest, you’re all as gadget obsessed as the next bloke.
    You all spout on about tradition and ‘honesty’ from the titanium railed saddles of your carbon hyperbikes. 😀

    Tyres?
    Yep, Crikey has a point.
    I’ll give it 5 years before the first bicycle ABS 🙂
    The rest of us can have wider, comfier tyres.
    Yes, I said COMFIER.
    The traditionalists can flagellate themselves with a worn out chain when they get home so they can ensure that they suffer properly, as is their wont.

    Bring on the discs!

    tang
    Member

    Sparkle- The hyrds were a industry gift I guess. I’ve been running them all summer and I’m very pleased. Bring on the filth….in a couple of months please!

    Haze
    Member

    I stop just fine with my rim brakes cheers Rusty 🙂

    Premier Icon garage-dweller
    Subscriber

    On a cx bike I get it.
    Mud and filth, wider tyres etc.

    On a road bike really non fussed. I can easily lock and slide my 23s down a dry road on budget dual pivots and loss of bite in the wet isn’t an issue as there is less grip anyhow! As noted above a stronger and stiffer fork n not good for comfort.

    I was an early ish disc brake user on the mtb. Anyone remember the rockshox cable actuated hydraulic discs?

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Er, I didn’t say you couldn’t. 🙂

    Mine aren’t bad.
    But I’d not say no to more power, increased modulation and better control.

    Would you?

    Oh, and I wonder how easy it is to lock up a road tyre on tarmac compared to an MTB tyre on dirt?
    MTB riders seemed to get used to the extra power quite quickly, didn’t they?

    I’ll give it 5 years before the first bicycle ABS

    Do keep up at the back, there…

    Brovedani ABS system, c.1995, IIRC.

    However, for this;

    You all spout on about tradition and ‘honesty’ from the titanium railed saddles of your carbon hyperbikes.

    kcr
    Member

    The other issue that I would be concerned about is that the contact patch on road tyres is pretty easy to overwhelm with a more powerful brake

    I’ve been running BB7s on my work bike for 10 years now. All year, all weather commuting, and some fully loaded touring in the big mountains. I still haven’t experienced this problem…

    For utility road bikes, discs are practical; consistent braking in all weathers, if your wheels take a beating a minor wobble is not an issue, and you can avoid grinding your rims away with road muck and salt in the winter. I think we will see more and more utility/touring frames with disc fittings.

    For competition road racing bikes, a good set of side pulls on alloy rims will brake just as effectively as discs. I guess braking on carbon rims is not as good, but the performance loss probably isn’t enough to make discs compelling, given the disadvantages (weight, aerodynamics, cost and complexity). That might change if the sponsors decide to push them in a big way, because the pros ride whatever they are paid to ride (see image above) and new road tech will trickle down.

    I think there will be an increasing number of disc equipped sportive bikes for riders who want something practical and are not wannabe racers.

    crikey
    Member

    Oh, and I wonder how easy it is to lock up a road tyre on tarmac compared to an MTB tyre on dirt

    ?

    With a decent dual pivot brake? Very easy indeed.

    Think of the wheel rim as a very big disc…

    more power, increased modulation and better control

    But still all being done through that tiny contact patch at 100 psi.

    The other issue which I suspect is only just being thought of in the ‘industry’ is that currently, people can trash a set of wheels in a couple of years or so, and go out and buy the next big thing. Stick discs on, and no one is wearing wheels out…

    For utility road bikes

    They’re not selling utility road bikes, they’re selling the dreams of middle aged men who watch the Tour…

    There is an aerodynamic advantage too. The caliper can be made small and compact due to greater power so it can tuck in behind the fork and probably faired in, the disc itself has a very small frontal area so negligible drag, the forks can be better aerodynamically optimised without the need for callipers, and wheel rim profiles can be better aerodynamically optimised without the need for a braking surface.

    Now, one often overlooked advantage of discs is that the rim can be built to just be a rim, not a braking surface AND a rim. As such, you can theoretically, build a better, lighter, more aero rim. Which is a win.

    Would you?

    At the expense of a whole new bike? There’s enough power/modulation with rim brakes, so that’s a very expensive upgrade for very little gain. I’d use them if they were there, but I don’t want/need them for the sake of having them.

    I’ll give it 5 years before the first bicycle ABS

    Maybe, it needs a pump though, so would end up very heavy.

    The rest of us can have wider, comfier tyres.
    Yes, I said COMFIER.

    We’re discussing braking? What’s tyre size got to do with it?

    kcr
    Member

    tang – I’m also interested in the Hy-Rds, because I find the BB7s are a bit fiddly to adjust, and don’t stand up well to winter weather.
    I guess you won’t have had a chance to give them some proper abuse with this summer’s weather, but does the construction look like it will stand up well to salt/grit/winter muck?

    aP
    Member

    I find my road bikes with 23mm tires perfectly comfy as they are TBH, except for riding P-B obviously when 28s are good.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    crikey – Member
    With a decent dual pivot brake? Very easy indeed.

    But it’s even easier to lock up an mtb tyre on dirt, isn’t it?
    So, you won’t have any issues controlling a disc on the road then, will you? 🙂

    The other issue which I suspect is only just being thought of in the ‘industry’ is that currently, people can trash a set of wheels in a couple of years or so, and go out and buy the next big thing. Stick discs on, and no one is wearing wheels out…

    And no MTB’ers ever upgrade their wheels?
    Or brakes?
    Another non issue.
    People will just spend the money on other components.

    thisisnotaspoon – Member
    We’re discussing braking? What’s tyre size got to do with it?

    Well, it might help all those poor old roadies who will apparantly be unable to control their hands, locking up wheels and dumping themselves in hedges all over the country.

    brooess
    Member

    Not required…ride smooth, look ahead and brake light.

    There’s a lot of truth in this – you simply don’t brake as often on a road bike, so more power/modulation etc isn’t a solution to any relevant problem…

    My summer bike’s 4 years old, been ridden 50-100 miles most weeks from May-Sept in that time and still has original brake blocks…

    For commuting they can be a good idea – I had Hope Minis on my Roadrat, but for most road riders they’re not a solution to a problem. On MTB, they were…

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    Might buy a new fork one day when they’re properly sorted, so I can have a front disc. Back, meh

    (though obviously the industry will have moved on 2 steps in fork standards by then and I won’t be able to anyway)

    MrSynthpop
    Member

    Having badly scored a front rim after some tiny metal road debris got stuck to my brake pad in the damp I’m all for discs.

    crikey
    Member

    As such, you can theoretically, build a better, lighter, more aero rim.

    Go on….

    The tyre width dictates the rim width, so how are we going to see a more aero rim?
    Lighter, I agree with, but lightness in rims is all a bit ‘rotating weight’ which has been shown to be far less important than cyclists assume.
    Better? In what way?

    Given the amount of time that mountain bikes have used discs, I see very little innovation in rim design, they just stopped machining brake tracks, which is hardly the great leap forwards…

    Premier Icon manton69
    Subscriber

    I like discs on any bike for one main reason: I am not deliberately wearing out a key structural element of the bike. A lot of the engineering of the rims goes in to mitigating this fact so the at the rims end up doing 2 key jobs.

    I know that the stresses involved in braking have to be sorted elsewhere, but I just like the idea of separating these two issues. I have to admit I have just seen the ultimate lightweight brakes: a french kid on a racer with no brakes other than putting his flip flop coated foot on the the rear tyre. That is true minimalism…..

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