A fair comment crazy-legs although I don’t really understand it – I quite genuinely can’t get angry over the Nadhim Zahawi fiasco. I know what he did was bang out of order but to me he is just another greedy and dishonest politician – who finds that truly shocking? And why waste energy getting angry over that?

On the other hand the Windrush Scandal genuinely makes me angry – we are talking about a monstrous injustice, one which saw innocent people deported or refused healthcare, with naked racism at its very heart.

And unlike the Nadhim Zahawi case it is, imo, shocking, even by the standards of the UK’s long established racist immigration and nationality laws.

So shocking in fact that a Tory Prime Minister, one who as Home Secretary was responsible for a highly toxic and hostile environment towards immigrants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Go_Home%22_vans

was forced to apologise and agree to important and crucial reforms. Commitments which are being dropped with the minimal amount of fuss.

In comparison I frankly couldn’t give a monkeys about Nadhim Zahawi or what he tried unsuccessfully to do. And tbh I doubt that many people are genuinely angry about the Zahawi story. I reckon it has far more to do with the pleasure derived from making things awkward for Sunak than genuine anger.

In comparison I frankly couldn’t give a monkeys about Nadhim Zahawi or what he tried unsuccessfully to do.. And tbh I doubt that many people are genuinely angry about the Zahawi story.

I’m not so sure, seeing a millionaire go to all that trouble to dodge tax when for the vast majority paying tax is not optional and plenty of people are falling behind, choosing between heating & eating as the cost of living rises… That really does make people angry.

Xenophobia has been at the core of conservative policy for many years, yet we’re not supposed to call them or their supporters nazis, scapegoating foreigners & immigrants for the failings of Westminster was at the core of Brexit, that makes people angry too, but we’re not allowed to criticise that either.

This was Sunak earlier today
being anti immigrant is seen as essential for the Tories to win back the red wall

How did the North East go from ‘When the Boat Comes In’ to ‘Stop the Boats’ in just a few generations?

Commitments which are being dropped with the minimal amount of fuss.

Depressing isn’t it.

Windrush scandal denied basic rights to British citizens. Ministers promised to right those wrongs.

Yet today Suella Braverman has dropped pledges & admitted less than half of compensation claims paid. Disgraceful letting down Windrush generation againhttps://t.co/GjTZnC1VBm

— Yvette Cooper (@YvetteCooperMP) January 26, 2023

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1618658380603604993?s=20&t=VfGtRNAIdQ-OHO09XGaUYA

But if you’re not also angry about Zahawi, that’s up to you.

Xenophobia has been at the core of conservative policy for many years, yet we’re not supposed to call them or their supporters nazis

Well you can if you want but it is pretty silly and frankly you can’t expect people to listen to you whilst taking you seriously if you start calling the Tory Party and Tory voters Nazis.

UK immigration and nationality laws have long had a racist character, in fact imo they are the only truly racist legislation in the UK. However I don’t think they change significantly with a change of government. They remain fundamentally the same whether the Tories or Labour are in power – don’t let the Tories fool you into thinking otherwise.

Nor do I think that the UK is unique – racist immigration and nationality laws are widespread throughout Europe.

This was Sunak earlier today being anti immigrant is seen as essential for the Tories to win back the red wall

I think you might have missed the motivation behind any such campaign. The Tories have lost all the red wall seats, they are marginal seats and all the opinion polls show that the Labour lead in the red seats is currently much higher than the national average.

The fact that the Tories will lose a huge amount of seats in the general election in about 18 months time is a forgone conclusion which no one doubts. Nor does anyone doubt that the marginal seats will be certain to fall.

The only uncertainty is how many Tory seats will fall – but all the red wall seats definitely will – along with undoubtedly some very safe traditional Tory seats.

And it is these traditional Tory seats which Sunak is desperate to hang on as many of as he can, this is a damage limitation exercise now and nothing more.

In the last general election the Brexit Party did not put up any candidates in 317 seats, purely to give the Tories the best chance to defeat Labour.

This coming general election the Brexit Party/Reform UK has said that they will stand in every single constituency. So not only will the Tories be threatened by the Labour Party in their traditional heartlands but their vote will risk being split with Reform UK.

Reform UK are currently polling about 6-7%, they could have a devastating effect on the Tories ability to hang onto seats. Minimising the damage they will inflict on the Tories is absolutely imperative to Sunak. Hence expect to hear plenty of bigot-appealing rhetoric.

Re, Windrush.

As I pointed out to a Scottish Unionist I was talking to on Twitter, when he told me “no one can take my being British away from me”, oh yes they can, with an attached Windrush link.

Still doesn’t mean I can’t be angry about tax-dodging millionaires.

As an aside, I got asked by a Scottish Nationalist the other day “but where are you from originally”? My first answer, New Zealand, was not considered to be a proper answer. I also have a British Passport. All kinds of scary stuff to unpack there!

I think you might have missed the motivation behind any such campaign. The Tories have lost all the red wall

They may well have done, but the red wall MPs & sunaks own strategists don’t see it that way

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/migrant-crossings-are-becoming-a-problem-for-red-wall-tory-mps

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9776659/Migrant-boat-crisis-hitting-Tory-support-Red-Wall-seats-Boris-Johnson-warned.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/04/red-wall-will-crumble-illegal-channel-crossings-continue-record/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1703800/migrant-channel-crossings-pushback-robert-jenrick-marco-longhi

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rishi-sunak-spring-statement_uk_623b338ee4b009ab930089c1

but the red wall MPs & sunaks own strategists don’t see it that way

Your first two links date from 2021, a time when the Tories had every reason to believe that they could hold on to the red wall. Indeed they actually won their last red wall seat from Labour, Hartlepool, in 2021, quite a remarkable achievement.

Since then things have completely changed. You yourself posted a link about three days ago with a frankly ridiculous prediction that the Tories would be down to just 23 MPs after the next general election.

Obviously that is nonsense but what is certain is that the Tories will only hang to their safest seats, not marginal seats which until 3 years ago had traditionally always been Labour.

Rishi Sunak is not going to waste time trying to hang on to seats which he is absolutely guaranteed lose. He knows the red wall is lost. Any appeal to bigotry will be to see off the threat that Reform UK poses in splitting the Tory vote.

Safe Tory seats are very likely to fall next general election. But obviously not in the numbers which your link a few days ago claimed.

I know this doesn’t fit into the hatred for working-class voters in working-class seats narrative, which is so popular on here, but that is the reality.

The 23 Tory MPs which your link suggested would be left after the next general election won’t include any red wall seats.

the hatred for working-class voters in working-class seats narrative

From this working class voter living in a northern Tory seat… please give it a rest. In fact, please just have a rest.

Not a chance mate.

Not whilst I have to listen to the constant drivel claiming voters are racist, and thick.

From the self-righteous who seek simple explanations for things which they don’t understand.

As an aside, I got asked by a Scottish Nationalist the other day “but where are you from originally”? My first answer, New Zealand, was not considered to be a proper answer. I also have a British Passport. All kinds of scary stuff to unpack there!

Shades there of that Royal hanger-on repeatedly demanding to know where that charity worker was really from at the Buckingham Palace event…

It’s quite impressive how the Tory party is now relatively diverse yet still so xenophobic. It’s been pointed out several times that Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, Nadhim Zahawi, possibly even Sunak himself…their parents wouldn’t have been allowed to stay in the UK under present Tory policy.

Not whilst I have to listen to the constant drivel claiming voters are racist, and thick.

Some *people* are racist and thick. That’s a simple fact.
Issues arise when their racism and stupidity impacts their decisions in day to day life such as voting. And that racism and stupidity can easily be harnessed and weaponised by media, by other racist idiots like Farage and so on.

It’s been pointed out several times that Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, Nadhim Zahawi, possibly even Sunak himself…their parents wouldn’t have been allowed to stay in the UK under present Tory policy.

Their parents must be utterly **** despicable people.
Would be interesting to ask cruella if she agrees with Enoch Powell’s immigration views.
A simple yes or no.

Surely pulling that ladder up behind yourself is the absolute living embodiment of Torydom?

Or maybe its taking it a step further and having anyone who enquires about the ladder deported to Rwanda?

Not whilst I have to listen to the constant drivel claiming voters are racist, and thick.

The driver of the culture divide between the woke and non-woke sections of society is a result of the neoliberal strategy to replace economic rights with individual rights. The working class are more interested in the former, the middle class the latter. Until the middle and upper classes recognise that economic rights are as – or more, arguably – important as individual rights then nothing will really change.

I’ve never believed the working class are inherently racist, but they are very susceptible to racist tropes and victims of their own ignorance. All they see is that society at large doesn’t care about the economic wellbeing of people in the lower classes of society, but does care a lot about things like gay and trans rights, womens rights and anti-racism. It’s not a surprise then that they react against that. If we want working class people to be less racist, then provide them with the economic security so they don’t fall victim to the populist hatemongers.

Personally, I don’t see tax avoidance/evasion as a minor irritation, I see it as hugely harmful to society.

The £billions avoided by already hugely wealthy individuals and corporations would and should contribute to fixing many of the huge issues we have – social care, education, NHS, policing, infrastructure, an endless list.

Maybe if we had all of this tax revenue, then things wouldn’t be half as bad for people and racism wouldn’t have such a strong toehold and be something that wins votes.

but they are very susceptible to racist tropes and victims of their own ignorance.

I beg to disagree, the working-class are not “very susceptible” to racism and ignorance imo. Just look at the so-called red wall seats which was brought up earlier.

Where is the evidence that racism is the driving force behind how they vote?

In 2017 all the red wall seats voted Labour, as they had for decades. Two years later all, with the exception of Hartlepool, voted Tory. Do you honestly believe that they all suddenly became racist over a couple of years?

In the next general election in about 18 months time there is little doubt that all the red wall seats will vote Labour, probably with quite large majorities. Have they suddenly ceased to be racist?

Constantly blaming racism for the electoral failings of a middle-clsss party of professionals might provide simple answers and excuses, I can certainly see the attraction, but it doesn’t necessarily make it true.

Constantly blaming racism for the electoral failings of a middle-clsss party of professionals might provide simple answers and excuses, I can certainly see the attraction, but it doesn’t necessarily make it true.

You’re partly right I reckon but racism is ONE OF the tactics used to appeal to certain people.

There’s a host of socio-political / socio-economic factors at the heart of it, it’s too simple to just distil it down to “racism” or “ignorance” but both of those are behind large parts of the problem(s).

The Government has systematically defunded opposition-controlled areas / councils. Services, transport, jobs, education all suffer. Meanwhile in the news is a constant drip-drip-drip of immigrants coming over here taking our jobs and also living off the state, the country suffering due to the overwhelming number of immigrants coming over here…

People put 2 + 2 together – they don’t come up with 4, they come up with a mish-mash of services suffering under their Labour council, the place overrun with immigrants, look at that nice Tory place over there with it’s big houses, this council have cancelled our bus services but spent [insert ludicrous sum] on diversity training….

It all adds up to a sort of anti-woke, anti-immigrant, anti-Labour feeling. Brexit had a big effect as well of course, the whole “get Brexit done” appealed to those who were sick and tired of hearing about it, didn’t understand it and just wanted it all to go away… You’re right, it’s not simply “racism” but there are certainly racist elements within it.

And it all gets picked up and magnified by those seeking to harness those divisions – divisions are very useful, they keep the general population hating each other while forgetting about the morons in charge.

in the news

This is key. And something Sunak and the rest of his cabinet can rely on in the run up to the next election.

In 2017 all the red wall seats voted Labour, as they had for decades. Two years later all, with the exception of Hartlepool, voted Tory. Do you honestly believe that they all suddenly became racist over a couple of years?

Yeah but I’m only talking about whether working class people are racist or not, not whether that influences their vote. The red wall going tory wasn’t to do with racism, it was to do with brexit being obstructed and the fact that the labour party had long ago abandoned them.

they come up with a mish-mash of services suffering under their Labour council, the place overrun with immigrants, look at that nice Tory place over there with it’s big houses, this council have cancelled our bus services but spent [insert ludicrous sum] on diversity training….

This. The tories played an extremely clever trick by getting working class voters to blame labour councils for all the problems they suffer. How many times did we hear stuff like ‘we’ve had a labour MP for decades and it hasn’t made any difference’.

Surely pulling that ladder up behind yourself is the absolute living embodiment of Torydom?

Yep, and one of the reasons the older ones voted Brexit was they didn’t GAS about how it’d make working folks lives harder.

the labour party had long ago abandoned them

Had it though? Or were they just being offered a plausible reason for the effects of government led austerity (too many workers and users of public services due to immigration) and a plausible fix for it (leave the EU and vote for those that can make that happen for you) that was more inviting than the complicated and expensive looking policies Labour offered? Anyway, all old news, we left, the workers have gone… things are worse not better… so people are looking around at who else to blame and for what the fix might be… and there’s Labour waiting to tell them the problems are caused by a Tory government and there is no fix that doesn’t start with getting them out. I don’t see Sunak countering that. If Labour were seen as abandoning the working class under their middle class leaders, then that is becoming even more true for the Conservatives now as well. No amount of blaming others will get Sunak out of the hole he is now in, but he can hope that with the help of the press that he can at least stop himself being completely buried. The time for change feeling is building. A different Conservative leader might be able to attach themselves to that feeling… I can’t see Sunak doing so.

Let’s look at the deputy leaders, there’s a good place to understand changing attitudes towards the two parties…

stuck up workplace bully – or straight talking down to earth northerner

Who’s on your side…?

Getting back on topic and Rishi’s immediate future (or lack of it)…

the old shagger is definitely on high-production-value manoeuvres ahead of the May elections (and their inevitable disastrous results that will obviously nothing to do with him).

I double checked this wasn’t a parody, but no, its completely beyond that

Time to turn the tables on the gloom-mongers, and exploit the benefits of Brexit. Remember that vaccine rollout! Happy Brexit Day! pic.twitter.com/kiRbCFcQFW

— Boris Johnson (@BorisJohnson) January 31, 2023

Along with his regular Ukraine photo-ops, it looks like he genuinely thinks the comeback is on…

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

What part of **** off doesn’t he understand?

Don’t forget: Boris has no interest in the truth. He’s falling back on his usual bullshit Brexit boosterism. And why wouldn’t he? Its served him pretty well so far

Looking at Rishi’s truly appalling public performance yesterday, where he once again looked like an over-eager supply teacher talking to a group of primary school children, would you put it past the Tory MPs and membership to do the unthinkable and add to the rolling farce that is UK politics.

The Italians bought Berlesconi back and I’m afraid thats where this country is at the moment. A ****ing madhouse!

Had it though?

They looked around and thought ‘this has been a labour area for as long as I’ve lived and what good has it done us?’. They stuck with voting labour for so long because they understood that labour represented the economic interests of the working class.

Then Blair came along and seemed more interested in the middle classes and fighting wars..
Then 2008 happened and the bankers were bailed out whilst everyone else lost their jobs or had their pay frozen..
Then the tories got back in and destroyed everything with austerity reinforcing the ‘not enough money’ narrative..
Then they were told if they voted for brexit they would have all this money that had been denied to them previously..
Then labour spent the best part of 3 years trying to block or eventually to overturn the brexit vote..
Then Boris came along and said he’d rescue brexit whilst at the same time saving everyone from a cartoon communist anti-semitic villain created by the media and the labour rightwing.

That’s why they abandoned the labour party in 2019.

The endless attacks on Corbyn for his supposed AS could easily have meant people switched their vote because of (misguided) ‘anti-racism’.
Simple economics shows us that if you increase the supply of labour, wages will fall.
All this can lead to allegations of a racist working class or just be seen as people’s consciousness being manipulated by the mass media, political parties etc.
The reality of falling living standards, interest rates, contracting economy, striking, crisis in the NHS, Westminster rip-offs (and expenses and donations from plutocrats) is likely to override the woke kites being flown.
The absence of any effective measures from the government is reflected by all their announcements of jam, not tomorrow but in decades to come, when they’re not in office. 15 minutes access to rivers of sewage which they’ve voted to permit for another 15 yrs ffs.
It’s a complex picture.

Simple economics shows us that if you increase the supply of labour, wages will fall.

Economics isn’t simple. As companies site and recruit abroad that’ll become clearer and clearer. Fancy a job in the car industry? No, I didn’t think so… I think that’s wise.

all their announcements of jam, not tomorrow but in decades to come, when they’re not in office

It’s all they can do for now… and then a tax cut just before the election, which if Labour say they will reverse will be used to paint them as the party that takes your money. Sunak outlined this plan when he stood to be leader. Expect it to still play out next year, whatever is happening otherwise, if he is still PM.

which they’ve voted to permit for another 15 yrs ffs

The party which promises literal rivers of shit. Who’ll suck it up and vote for them anyway?

Yeah but I’m only talking about whether working class people are racist or not, not whether that influences their vote.

Well they are pisspoor racists if it doesn’t influence the way they vote.

I’m happy to concede that point.

Hopefully those few will vote Reform and further add to the Tories’ woes.

Simple economics shows us that if you increase the supply of labour, wages will fall.

If you believe that, then you don’t understand economics.

Well they are pisspoor racists if it doesn’t influence the way they vote.

Well that’s kind of my point. 😉

The only reason racist sentiment gets a look in is because the economic arguments have been conceded. Over the past 20 years labour have retreated from the economic argument that working people can earn a good wage and be secure. Once they start making that argument again and do something about it when in govt I’m almost certain the racist stuff will evaporate.

BillMC
Full Member

Simple economics shows us that if you increase the supply of labour, wages will fall.

Simple economics doesn’t survive contact with the real world. Neither in most cases does really complicated economics.

Simple economics doesn’t survive contact with the real world. Neither in most cases does really complicated economics.

And yet the entire global economic system is based on the belief that markets are efficient and governments are wasteful. 🤷‍♂️

Aye, the lies and fantasies of the global economic system are the main reason so much economics doesn’t survive contact with the real world. We need a second word for this, to distinguish between the science of real economics and the sack of horseshit that underwrites the actual financial world.

Trussanomics?

Behavourial economics is used for the subset which tries looking at what actual humans do rather than Homo economicus.

Most traditional economics doesnt survive contact with the real world since its built around simplified models.

Oh dear, more tax discrepancies.

This time Sunak’s father-in-law… And obviously there’s some history there cos his wife avoided millions in tax by declaring herself non-dom.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/31/infosys-uk-tax-dispute

If you believe that, then you don’t understand economics.

I am fairly confident that BillMC understands economics, in fact I am not sure that he hasn’t taught the subject.

I on the other hand know bugger all about economics. But what I do know is the effect labour supply has on wages.

For example I know that the sudden influx of Labour in construction following EU enlargement in 2004 caused my day rate (and price work rates) to remain static for about 5 years.

I also know that the unprecedented collapse of construction in the early 1990s caused a huge surplus of labour which resulted in my day rate collapsing by a massive amount.

Real world experience.