Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 255 total)
  • Riding offroad without a lid on?
  • westkipper
    Free Member

    The 'broad church' analogy is fitting
    Most churches also have an unfounded belief in the power of their religion to save.

    radoggair
    Free Member

    steve b – thankyou – Showing TJ is just a……….

    experienced or not? makes a huge difference

    Not really, you may have 50 years experience on a bike, doesn't make you less likely to have an accident

    Justify this action and your conclusions that it medium high?

    i dont have to justify this, crashing your bike happens on a daily basis compared to say, falling out an aeroplane and generally, whether your aware of it or not, your head will come in to contact with the ground.

    why – no evidence to support your view

    well its my view for a start, and plenty of people who have hurt there head would support this. If every risk assessment requires scientific proof they would never get complete, but then you know this

    again – no evidence.

    Wrong, it was me who crashed so there is evidence.

    Simple as this TJ.IF you decide when on your tandem journeys not to wear a lid and harm comes to you or your riding friend, then thats fine, but dont expect me to sympathise with you when this does

    GW
    Free Member

    I haven't read any more than the title and first post of this thread (no point) so forgive me if I've missed something (doubt it v. much). anyway, I often don't wear a helmet while I ride, whether it's on my Roadbike, XC, DH or BMX is irrelevant.
    today I cracked my lid off a tree almost hard enough to knock me off my bike while leaning in on a fast but tight corner, if I hadn't been wearing it I wouldn't have hit the tree at all. 😕

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    CountZero
    Full Member

    No one seems to be considering the effect of a simple impact of the head on the ground. There have been any number of instances of individuals dying after confronting yobs, or during fights in the street. In virtually every case the person has suffered a single punch, but died after, as a result of their head hitting a kerbstone. Explain, please, how a head hitting the ground after a punch is different to a head hitting the the ground after a bike goes sideways. Every time I've hit the deck on a bike my head has had some sort of contact with the ground, last time at walking pace on damp tarmac. Now, I have no idea what damage I may have done to my head, my left knee suffered enough, but I do know, looking at the damage to the peak on my Xen, that I would have suffered, at the very least, severe lacerations to my left temple, probably requiring hospital treatment. I can't honestly imagine there is anybody out there who would voluntarily suffer head trauma rather than wear a crash hat. Or maybe some people just get an adrenaline rush from the risk. I do know that hitting the deck on rough stony ground at 15-20mph is going to be even more damaging than my impact at 5mph. A fractured skull is a fractured skull, no matter how it's aquired. Hey, but it's your choice, think of it as evolution in action, nature's way of culling the clumsy or stupid. I'm not that stupid.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Steve – you need to sort that confusion. A hazard cannot be a likelyhood

    The likelihood or incidence depends on other factors.

    There are many systems of risk assessment – I know of several and have been trained professionally to assess risk.

    mboy
    Free Member

    There is also a school of thought developing within industrial risk assessment that there is no such thing as an accident, only an incident caused by incorrectly assessing the risks and failure to mitigate such risks – loosely phrased as incidents happen because people don't do things correctly.

    Yup

    But being Brits we LOVE to blame everything on accidents… It makes us feel all nostalgic and invulnerable, the idea that "things that just happen for no apparent reason"… Haha. Christ, I love teaching people about hazards and risks and how to minimise them (sad I know!), cos their faces are a picture when you ram home to them the cause and effect of what they do, and how their negligence has the capability to cause severe harm!

    TJ, I see your argument, you make a good point. But I think it's been argued before, and I agree on this one, why when something such as an MTB helmet is so unobtrusive (lets face it, all decent MTB helmets these days, you hardly notice you're wearing them if they fit correctly in the first place!) not wear it anyway? Even if the risk is low, when it is so easy to minimise that risk even further, why would you not do so?

    And that is my main point!

    if I hadn't been wearing it I wouldn't have hit the tree at all.

    Best not wear a lid ever then GW, even when racing DH, based upon your own experience of it causing more harm than good! 😉

    steve_b77
    Free Member

    From the Oxford English Dictionary->

    "Hazard is the potential to cause harm; risk on the other hand is the likelihood of harm (in defined circumstances, and usually qualified by some statement of the severity of the harm). "

    Check here if you don't believe me

    My bad but you get the point, a Hazard can potentially cause harm if a risk is not mitigated.

    westkipper
    Free Member

    mboy, I think my first post gives an answer to your point.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Go on one last post

    Raddogair – you really think experience has no bearing on how likely you are to crash? Apart from that I thought you were talking about the general situation and replied thus – if you're talking about a specific then we are at cross purposes.

    GW – no need to red the whole thread – its the usual arguments.

    Xipe – you need to look at your technique 😉 – seriously in 40 yrs of offraod biking I have never hit my head apart from once on a branch when wearing a helmet – I attribute some of that to Judo and breakfalling and protecting your head – active / passive safety again.

    mboy – I find helmets uncomfortable and sweaty and inconvenient and I'd rather ride without one.

    coogan
    Free Member

    But I think it's been argued before

    No, really?!

    Old-timer
    Free Member

    wear one if you want, dont if you dont. End of stupid discussion.

    crikey
    Free Member

    Same old arguments, same old anecdotes, same old stuff trotted out regarding helmets.

    If they work in the way you assume, it will be clear as day in the statistics.

    It's not clear, because the evidence that they work isn't there.

    It's an inch of polystyrene, not a magic helmet, and it WILL NOT protect you from a serious injury.

    If it did, and the evidence was there to prove so, we would be made to wear them by law.

    Tedious, but you really need to look at the evidence available;

    http://cyclehelmets.org/

    radoggair
    Free Member

    Raddogair – you really think experience has no bearing on how likely you are to crash? Apart from that I thought you were talking about the general situation and replied thus – if you're talking about a specific then we are at cross purposes.

    Experience doesn't mean your any good at it!!. Christ, i've got 10 years experience on Lewis Hamilton driving but i'm sure he's better than it than me ( although to be fair, i've never raced him so don't officially know). And as for crashing yourself TJ, thats fantastic news, no really it is. I'm glad you've done so well but…… doesn't mean your any good at this sport. I'm sure i'd quite happily ride stuff you wouldn't but thats not because i'm wearing a helmet, its probably because your minimising the chances of you crashing.

    buzz-lightyear
    Free Member

    3 weeks ago I crashed and hit my shoulder and head hard on rocky ground and cracked my Giro Hex through. After the initial "ooooofff" had subsided, I rode for another 3 hours – albeit gingerly (I had torn some ligaments in the shoulder)

    Thanks Giro (I bought another Hex)

    RichPenny
    Free Member

    crikey, TJ has said that he takes tricky sections cautiously (walks?) when not wearing a helmet. Ergo, he appears to believe that they can, in fact prevent injury. I have landed on the road on my head and hand at speed. I broke 5 bones, none of them were my skull.

    A full face helmet in a car would reduce head injuries. Are we compelled to wear them by law?

    samuri
    Free Member

    I;ve not read all the answers but my response being…

    I've banged my head lots of times while out riding, offroad and on road. I doubt any of these impacts would have killed me, nor do I think my helmet will save me in a serious accident but I do know for a fact my helmets have stopped me being hospitalized.

    I also think that anyone who rides 'harder' becaue they're wearing a helmet or any safety gear is a complete ****. Helmets have stopped me getting lots of nasty head injuries, some of which would have been permanent, they're cheap, light and once it's on you rarely notice it. Up to you though. If your head is worth nothing to you, wear nothing on it.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Rich – prevent minor ones – serious life threatening injuries they are not very good reducing or preventing. Its all about the amount of energy involved.

    RichPenny
    Free Member

    TJ, in my worst crash I generated enough force through my wrist to snap the end off my radius. My head hit the floor at the same time. I don't think that amount of force going through my skull would be a good thing. Do you? And if you think they only prevent minor injuries, why do you wear one at trail centres since you find them so uncomfortable?

    brack
    Free Member

    Ok as an Emergency care practitioner ( ex Paramedic) who has spent the last 15 yrs covering the mountain bike popular routes around the South Downs…I cannot pin point any particular incident where I have been called to a biker who's life has been saved by wearing a helmet – but have been to countless accidents where the cyclist is back at work after a few days…as opposed to a longer recovery time.

    It really is a personal preference – and one that I certainly wouldn't harrang someone for not adhering to.I am way too busy in my job and have seen too much innocent trauma to start taking the moral high ground about anything!

    I think that the points emphasising the merits of riding to the safety clothing that you are wearing are extremely valid…but we all know that it is not always the obvious that catches us out.

    Good luck!..because that is what our faint existence often amounts to in my experience!

    RepacK
    Free Member

    Never once thought "damn I wish I wasnt wearing a helmet.." But I have had on occasion reason to thank **** that I am. Yes its upto the individual but dont expect ANY sympathy when you go @rse over tit & bend your noggin!

    TJ the argument about helmets being uncomfortable just doesnt wash Im afraid & if your honest you will admit that..Oh Im not going to go round the houses with you on this one (regarding severity of injury) as I have a feeling we have done that before.. 😉

    But hey carry on – its a free world etc etc ect..

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    I read about 1/2 of this thread, enough to see it's the same old same old being spouted by TJ, who's never had an accident and knows he won't if he's not wearing a helmet. TJ, I REALLY hope you never come to regret you decision. Honestly, I really do.

    FYI, it's when you're pootling, when you're relaxed, when you're confident that the accidents tend to happen. I once went on a ride in the Lakes. Low level steady ride with Mrs PP. I discovered that I'd left my newly washed helmet pads back at the tent, and for about 10 seconds I considered not wearing my lid, because I thought I'd be safe. In the end I covered the scratchy velcro with some tape and put it on. 2-3 miles into the ride, I went slowly sailing over the bars trying to ride something that looked rather innocent, and bashed my head on a rock. No, it most likely wouldn't have killed me, but I'd have been off to hospital for a few stitches and my day would have been ruined.
    Apart from that incident, I've gone through 3 helmets on the road, 2 of which were simple lack of attention caused by outside factors, with no obvious dangers about.

    I don't find it odd that those of us that have tested their helmets (Like Jedi) wouldn't go without them, whilst those that haven't sometimes do, either……

    EDIT

    There are many systems of risk assessment – I know of several and have been trained professionally to assess risk

    So have I.
    So, how would I hande this situation if I was at work?
    Well, we've had it drummed into us that it's the people that think they are fine, that have been doing a task for years, that are one of the highest risks. And only last week I was on a course where it was again reiterated that we should challenge someone or something that we thought was wrong or unsafe. Because again, ignoring an issue is when the accidents happen.
    If I was to do a full RA on cycling, It would be concluded that it was a pretty risky task. After minimising said risk by making sure the equipment was up to scratch, and that the route taken was as safe as possible, the next thing would be PPE, for visiblity if cycling on the road and crash protection in all instances.
    Don't try muddling me with H&S BS, TJ…. 🙂

    funkynick
    Full Member

    Serious question as I wasn't riding before helmets became deemed necessary, but was there a big problem with a lot of head injuries amongst mountain bikers prior to the majority using them?

    But then, it's never going to be sorted out and it'll always be a contentious issue with ingrained camps on both sides, just look at how long the helmet debate has raged within the climbing community, and shows no sign of abating there either!

    funkynick
    Full Member

    PP… if you are going to use the H&S angle, shouldn't you also do as you say and make sure the route is as safe as possible? In which case you'll be riding along the flatest, easiest route.

    But nobody on here ever really does that, they, like you and I, look for the 'fun' trails to ride. So why is it acceptable for us to take that particular risk, but not to take a risk of not using a helmet on a flat ride?

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    PP… if you are going to use the H&S angle, shouldn't you also do as you say and make sure the route is as safe as possible? In which case you'll be riding along the flatest, easiest route

    I did say that. 🙂

    But in the case of MTBing as a leisure activity that's rarely the desired option. And that increases the risk.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    Have we covered spine protectors yet? (sorry, haven't read the thread)
    Evangelising that you should wear a helmet but not bothering with a spine protector seems a bit mental to me (but I guess dogmas are mostly irrational by default). It only takes one unlucky roll onto a small stone or tree stump..

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    funkynick – Member

    Serious question as I wasn't riding before helmets became deemed necessary, but was there a big problem with a lot of head injuries amongst mountain bikers prior to the majority using them?

    simply no – there has never been any epidemic of head injuries.

    Peterpoddy – you totally misrepresent what I say and you are full of inaccuracies yourself – the worst of which is:

    If I was to do a full RA on cycling, It would be concluded that it was a pretty risky task

    This is one of the cornerstones of the argument – cycling is very safe. It simply is not a risky activity unless you chose to make it one. The numbers of folk killed or injured each year show this.

    You show your ignorance of H&S and of risk assessment.

    Reack

    RepacK – Member

    TJ the argument about helmets being uncomfortable just doesnt wash Im afraid & if your honest you will admit that.

    I don't understand – helmets are uncomfortable and sweaty. All of them – every single one. – in comparison to having nothing on your head

    genesis
    Free Member

    Hmm, lid wearing seem a real hornets nest of an issue!

    Working at a trail centre its intersting to see the kind of riders we see about and how they asses the potential hazards of being out in the forest. It amazes me sometimes the lack of preperation and forethought that some people have, when did taking responsibility for your actions and self become a thing of the past?

    funkynick
    Full Member

    PP… I know you did.. 🙂

    And you are right, taking the easy line is rarely what we are looking for in this sport. But, and there was always going to be one of those wasn't there, why is that increase of risk acceptable, but choosing to go for a pootle without a helmet not?

    For example, who is more likely to have an accident? Someone riding to the shops on a cycle path, or someone riding the trails at a trail centre?

    If it's selfish to ride to the shops without a lid, then surely it is even more so to ride a trail centre…

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    A gnarly trail on which you must wear a helmet or you will die

    elliptic
    Free Member

    Oh good grief.

    Wearing a helmet = a good idea, probably

    Not wearing one = well, it's your head

    Banging on sanctimoniously about it = 🙄

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Normal XC ones are simply not that good – if they save your life you are left seriously injured. If you are left with no injury they saved you from a minor injury.

    As I recall, this assertion of TJ's is based on some pretty motheaten old studies, which were carried out around the time of Etto bucket lids with flouresecent lycra covers. Modern lids are MUCH better, with better retention systems, lower profiles, and more coverage of your head. People are also more knowledgeable about how to get a helmet that fits properly, and shitty "one size" helmets are much less common these days.

    I suspect that for many of the people who don't wear lids, it isn't because they've made a balanced risk assessment or sworn off all forms of riding except Ambient Jeycore Lite. It's because of concerns about fashion (c.f. BMX, where no-one who wears a lid ever gets more than a footnote in Ride or Dig amgazine) or people thinking "It'll never happen to me".

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Note also that this is an entirely separate debate to whether their use should be compulsory.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    mr agreeable – find some studies that show your point then. Thats the best stuff I can find.

    In some ways modern helmets have got worse – less and harder grade of poly and the testing regime remains very simple and obviously flawed.

    Helmets are simply not that effective – and worse than helmets for other sports.

    You should be agitating for better research and testing on cycle helmets 'cos a lot of what is out there is Richter poor quality.

    I prefer evidence based stuff rather than faith – and the evidence is that helmets do not improve safety by any measurable amount

    robdob
    Free Member

    The big question is, I think, is that if you have a helmet, why aren't you wearing it? Surely the act of buying one must show that you appreciate it does something for you if you crash. You can't tell they're on nowadays so that's no excuse (and the bloke who said he can't hear as well when wearing one made me laugh out loud!!!). So why not? I assume you wear gloves and padded shorts and shades (there's always going to be someone who says they don't, just to be a smartarse).

    If someone buys a £100 bike and doesn't buy a helmet because of cost doesn't wear one I can see why not. If you have you £2k niche machine but decide not to wear your £50 helmet as you feel like you've "assessed the risks and decided methodically that it'll be within acceptable limits for my intended skill schedule" (or other drivel as quoted above) then I'm afraid you're just making a fool of yourself.

    grumm
    Free Member

    It's because of concerns about fashion

    I dunno, I always* wear a helmet for off-road biking, but I often ride to work on a cycle path without one, and it is much more pleasant/less sweaty. I'm sure fashion might be an issue as well.

    *did forget my helmet once but as Id driven up to Grizedale I thought I'd go for a ride anyway – got some very dissaproving looks. I thought I'd try and take it easy but it didn't really work out like that

    This pretty much sums it up for me

    Wearing a helmet = a good idea, probably

    Not wearing one = well, it's your head

    firestarter
    Free Member

    last time i had a big off i hit head first to the rocks i crushed my helmet and it also broke and i ended up in intensive care i was pretty glad i had it on as i dont know what i would have been like without it. it may have been not as bad but i'll take my chances and keep wearing one

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    TandemJeremy – Member
    mr agreeable – find some studies that show your point then.

    There are more recent studies on cyclehelmets.org but according to you these don't test rotational impact so they're worthless. 🙄

    If harder helmets are a bad thing then why do you wear a pisspot when you go out jumping on your tandem?

    If less polystyrene is a bad thing than why do you bang on about rotation injuries and assert that wearing a helmet is a sure fire way to end up paralysed?

    Testing for lids needs to be better but I'm not convinced that one lid which passes SNELL is automatically safer than one OF near-identical construction which hasn't been tested. They are not complicated things.

    Bottom line, helmets aren't perfect but unless you can bail perfectly every time they are better than nothing.

    nonk
    Free Member

    sticks hand up in the air like a 5 year old at scool me me me.
    last year i had a crash. high speed,head came into contact with a tree stunp(kind of top of head first) once the dust had settled and i realised my mates all had looks of horror on there faces it was pointed out that my helmet was in three bits. my head was fine.
    so TJ what i am saying is that i am not up for running the other part of this test.
    but yes you shouldnt have folk tutting at you cos you dont bother.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    This is one of the cornerstones of the argument – cycling is very safe. It simply is not a risky activity unless you chose to make it one. The numbers of folk killed or injured each year show this.

    You show your ignorance of H&S and of risk assessment.

    No ignorance at all. But you're showing your blinkered view. 🙂
    And it's a blinkered view that causes the problems in many cases

    Lets look at the facts – (CAUTION – This is going to get silly now, but let's follow it through… 🙂 )

    You're balancing on 2 wheels.
    Fairly high speeds can be attained fairly easily.
    On the road you're small, virtually unprotected, travelling a lot slower than other traffic, and hard to see.
    Off road the surface is astonishingy bad in comparison, and infinately variable. The bike spends time off the ground either by accident or design
    Weather can make a big difference. (either hot or cold or wet etc)
    Bikes can very easily be knocked off their chosen path by poor surface or wind. Even looking behind you can easily cause a weave.
    The operator is untrained in most cases
    There is no legal reqiurement relating to the mechanical state of the bike, or to PPE to be used.
    There are few if any active safety systems on a bike (EG – ABS on a car. Airbags are passive safety, or I as I prefer to put it, 'emergency features' for when the safety has failed!)

    Off the top of my head that's the risks I can think of.
    Right in front of me right now are 2 blokes cutting several broken and rusted RSJs out of my weighbridge and welding new ones in. The RA/SWP I did for that had nowhere near as many hazzards (Hot work, traffic management, lifting, slips trips & falls basically) as I've just listed above. I have an inkling that if cycling were a 'work related task' it would simply be concluded that it was too risky and we'd have to find another way of achieving the task. (Told you this was going to get silly!)

    The way a RA works is that you identify the risks then quatify them. If a risk is too high, steps are taken to reduce the risk to an acceptable level. If the level of risk can't be reduced below the acceptable level the task is not to be carried out.
    A RA is not a 'ticket to ride' it's a logical way of assessing a task before you start it.
    If I had the time and a way to host it, I'd do a RA, SWP, and Permission to Proceed for cycling for you. But sadly I don't. 😉

    robdob
    Free Member

    TJ, a couple of questions:

    Do you own a helmet?
    Do you have a) a ridiculously shaped head, b) a particularly bad skin disease or c) a dramatic and unconventionally hard to style hairdo, that would make a helmet unusually uncomfortable or socially suicidal?

    And I am not joking, please let me know.

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