Agree about personal choice. I couldn’t care less whether other adults riding on their own or in groups that I’m not part of do.

i wouldn’t ride in a group if another rider didn’t have a helmet on though. Seen enough unnecessary blood as a First Aider and IMO it’s selfish to go on a group ride without a helmet.

Why? For the same reason I don’t want compulsory bike registration, insurance, mots etc – they are all obstacles in the way of people cycling and, ultimately, are a negative thing.

Yeah it’s the same ****ts who want to regulate cycling into the ground also tend to want mandatory helmets, and it’s certainly not ‘cos they care for the health of cyclists, more like they are just spiteful b@stards.

Personally I always wear a helmet now and have done since 2000. There is virtually no downside to wearing them so the protection (even if slim) is worth it. Plus I can put a light on a helmet during winter.

Virtually no downside *for you*.

I hate the **** things.  Went to Brenin with my new soda last weekend, first ride.  Helmet came off for every climb.  I’m a head sweater and even in the dead of winter I find them intolerable.

Wear ’em for gnar as I’d be stupid not to as the risk is higher. But nothing else.

I wouldn’t ride in a group if another rider didn’t have a helmet on though. Seen enough unnecessary blood as a First Aider and IMO it’s selfish to go on a group ride without a helmet.

No. It’s actually incredibly selfish for a first aider to be so immature they’d refuse ride with a group because another rider chose not to wear a helmet.
If it’s a guided ride and you are being payed to lead by all means have a no helmet no ride rule to cover your insurance but on a social ride stop being such a selfish idiot and use your common sense.

I’ve heard others say the same on here and can’t believe they’re serious. If they (and you) are I honestly wouldn’t want to know someone so selfish. You should be ashamed of yourself. I wouldn’t call you a First Aider at all with your attitude.

Geex. Didn’t you argue that it was selfish to have the eminently sensible ‘voluntary’ restriction on riding up Snowdon and that we should ban walkers from some bits of the mountain?

I think you just don’t like people criticising your choices.

I can understand why someone might feel that exposing yourself to unnecessary risk on a social ride is selfish.  I think they’re wrong – but only because they don’t know how ro assess relative risk.  But that doesn’t deserve your vitriol, in the same way that, whilst mildly annoying, the snowdon agreement that keeps us riding there legally is understandable.

A wee point on peaks.  why do MTBers have peaks on their helmets?  what purpose do they have?  I have seen 3 people injured by helmet peaks.  OTB accident, helmet peak pushed into their face on the impact, one broken nose and two cuts to their nose.

IMO the peaks actually add to danger – so if you want the lowest chance of injury please remove your peak.

The other thing is helmets do not decrease your risk of accident indeed they may well increase your risk of having an accident- they MAY in some circumstances mitigate the injuries.  Please differentiate between the two things – risk and severity of outcome.  risk is how likely an accident is.  Severity is what the outcome of that accident is.

From what I’ve seen of that geex fella he doesn’t need a helmet but one elbow pad on his right arm would help.

Can’t say I follow your logic geex re my first aid point, but that’s fine. As a coach and MTB Leader I follow the BC guidance of no lid, no ride. Obviously that applies to group rides more than individuals off on their own.

” Seen enough unnecessary blood as a First Aider and IMO it’s selfish to go on a group ride without a helmet”

and

“As a coach and MTB Leader…”

Scary combination! Remind me to avoid your rides!! Too much blood even wearing helmets; sounds too risky, I’m out. 😉

I sometimes wonder about what and how helmets are worn. Out of date? Properly sized? Properly adjusted? Correctly fastened? Not damaged? Straps secure? Straps not frayed? Never mind the should you or shouldn’t you debate!

psling 😀. Thankfully never had much First Aid need or blood on ones I have been leading or coaching !

Your point about fit is crucial. Led rides and coaching sessions include, as well as a bike ‘M’ check, a clothing and helmet check, which looks at fit, straps etc. Always amazes me how many need adjusted. Even this morning, with a group of 14 kids I coach every Saturday morning, 3 of the helmets needed the straps reset before the ride.

ianc  just out of interest how many of those kids had properly sized shells ie ones that you cannot get your little finger between head and shell at any point?

@tjagain if that were the case, why do manufacturers make helmets that fit a range. My present helmet a Giro xar is 55 – 59cm which then has a cradle to adjust to different head sizes. If your statement is correct surely they would make helmets in 1/2 cm increments.

Helmet seems to have saved this bloke from much worse:

(Lorry driver attacks two cyclists with a hammer in Pontevedra, putting one in hospital with head injuries)

@chevychase. I’ll let you into a little secret. I’ve never actually been anywhere near Snowdon in my life and don’t recall the thread you’re refering to. Does sound like something I might well say in jest though. But Shhhhhhhh… don’t tell anyone 😉 Also. there’s no vitriol here other than in your head, Please stop making things up, eh?

@Iainc It’s not really MY logic, AFAIC it’s just being a decent human being. Blindly refusing to ride with other perfectly sensible adults because you deem them to be at more risk of hurting their heads than they themselvs do is quite frankly mental. Even more so when you have taken the time to become professionally trained in how to aid such freak uncommon incidents as seriously hurting your head when riding a bike.
I’m not talking about while you’re working as a coach or a leader following BC guidelines. I’m talking about normal group rides with others. This includes all quick journeys by bike with more than one rider. Or do you only see cycling as a serious “sport” that needs regulations at all time and an umpire who only ever partakes with all the kit and clearly no idea?

@SSStu Back when I dirt jumped a lot I’d wear knee pads but no helmet. Because I’d purposely land on my knees when bailing but never my head. Mibbie I should buy an elbow guard now I’m old and forgetful. They must sell them in singles, right?

Geex, it’s all about choice, as you say. I would choose not to ride in a group where some riders didn’t have helmets as in my opinion the chance of a head injury, were they to crash would be increased. I would never force my opinion on anyone on a social ride, as not my place to do so. I would probably just do a different ride and let it go. Choice as you say.  As a First Aider I would always assist where possible and the more minor the trauma the better the likely trail side fix.

TJ – the fit space is a good point, escpecially for kids where they may get passed down from an older sibling. We look for a decent snug fit, correct angle, straps done up correctly. Not much more we can do in a kids coaching situation. If lid looks damaged/bad fit we will ask the parents that they come next week with one that is complaint.

I would choose not to ride in a group where some riders didn’t have helmets as in my opinion the chance of a head injury, were they to crash would be increased

Yeah. I got that much from the start. I really don’t ‘get’ it though. As in. What do you feel you’re achieving by taking yourself, a rider with First Aid and MBL experience away from that situation?
I can only see it as you not wanting to be there to help if any head injury does happen.
Hence my opinion of you being an incredibly selfish man.

@ianc see my reply to tj, the fit space is not important, it’s the fit of the cradle that initially holds the helmet in place.

They must sell them in singles, right?

Maybe you could find someone that wants and Enduro specific bar mounted basket for carrying their helmet on the climbs and do a trade with them for an old right elbow pad they have floating about somewhere?

Geex, you are correct, you really don’t get it.

i will help with any injury if I can. On my local trails, at Mugdock, with tight natural forest it is common for people to clatter small branches and twigs with their helmets. When that happens the ride continues in most situations with no effect on the rider or anyone else. Were that to happen to a rider without a helmet it is likely they would have a cut on their head which would benefit from First Aid, which I would of course help with. If they had a lid on in the first place there would likely be, in same situation, no need for the group to stop, or any First Aid to be required.

to form an opinion of me as an incredibly selfish man is, to use your terminology, mental 😀.

Anyway, it’s saturday night and I’m off for a a glass of wine, good evening and happy riding x

Thats not what TRL say bikepawl – the fit of the shell is essential.  Otherwise the helmet is badly compromised.

the regs allow the helmet manufacturers to do this and its not picked up in standard testing however the TRL ( transport research Laboratory – the UKs government funded road safety body) found this to be a significant factor.  Top of the range manufacturers use 5 shell sizes for adults.

If the EPS is snug to your head then you get a smooth deceleration over the 2.5 cm of the EPS.  If its not you get an impact head to shell.

I can’t get onto the trl site to get the report right now and anyway we are rehashing old ground

Can you point me to these manufacturers that do five sizes for adults?

Bell do 4 on the one helmet I checked

This is the critical sentence from the TRL report

Linear impact performance, head inertia and helmet fit were identified as important contributory factors to the level of induced rotational motion and injury potential. The design of helmets to include a broad range of sizes was also concluded to be detrimental to helmet safety, in terms of both reduced linear and rotational impact performance.

4 is the most I’ve seen, so can can you tell me which of the top of the range manufacturers do 5 sizes?

31 years mtb here, only worn one twice, fell off twice and hit my head…true. Met a guy at swinley last week from cali who trained mtb racers, who we rode with for a bit, smoked hit on the ht. He asked the question and said he had seen some horrible head injuries…guess my bare head keeps me alive…..i dont want to hit it..

.

edit, mis-post

I know Mugdock well and those small glances you get with twigs, ferns and leaves you’re describing are actually far less likely to happen with no helmet being worn. Visual spacial skills being closer to the norm and no daft polystyrene pudding bowl to have adjust to for your natural insticts and reactions to work properly. The injury you are describing from your local flora is a scratch. not a cut and as such rarely worth stopping for at all nevermind using first aid on in the woods. A woooly hat would protect you just as well from this type of … erm… can’t really in all seriousness call this an injury… but ok. injury as a helmet will.

Your attitude and rule boundness? No. I don’t get it. I never will.

Please do me a favour though and stop saying publicly you would refuse to go on a group ride if anyone in the group was not wearing a helmet. It makes me sad for the future of humanity.

I wear one when I think it makes sense and based on where I’m going and what I plan to do. Probably 70% of rides without, doing CX style loops.

If the EPS is snug to your head then you get a smooth deceleration over the 2.5 cm of the EPS.  If its not you get an impact head to shell.

You still get the deceleration over the 2.5 cm whether you hit a rock whilst wearing the helmet or your bare head hits a rock attached to 2.5 cm of helmet polystyrene.

Geex,  I am quite entitled to my own opinion, it is a forum after all.

i respect your opinion on many points, and have said so on other posts in the past. This one we won’t agree on, which is fine. See you on the trails, cheers.

Yeah, of course you are Iain. When we meet on the trails you do realise I’m going to follow you around without my helmet on in the hope of breaking your cherry so you’ll shift your goalposts.

😉

😜. Geex, l look forward to it, a catch up on the trails would be great. I know we are all different in reality from the way we come across online.

 I’m a head sweater and even in the dead of winter I find them intolerable.

With modern helmets I actually find they can be beneficial in channelling the air and being more cooling.

why do MTBers have peaks on their helmets?

Bit of sun blocking (doesnt work when on drops hence not good for road stuff) and also as a shield against the “bugger there is a bramble coming at my eye DUCK!!!!!”.

Thinking through my approach to helmets a bit more. Think it comes down to whether the purpose of the ride is cycling or just a means of transport. If I am cycling, either mountain biking or road stuff then I will wear one, if its just a way of getting somewhere, eg shops/pub (actually in the latter case I would be more likely but thinking of the ride back) then I may or may not.

rydster – its about the rate of change of the acceleration.  When the EPS is snug to your head the acceleration builds up over a longer time than if there is an air gap – think of a slack seatbelt compared to a snug one.

Awesome bit of comedy Tj posting again !

i never wear a helmet because I know best and on the odd occasion that I do I’m probably doing it better than anyone else because I know best

then I’ll back it up with some nonsense I’ve made up

amazing

Geex, GMBC ride tomorrow around Pitlochry if you fancy ? Riding from Escape Routes at 10, probs around 4 and a bit hours incl stops. You’d be very welcome.

rydster – its about the rate of change of the acceleration.  When the EPS is snug to your head the acceleration builds up over a longer time than if there is an air gap – think of a slack seatbelt compared to a snug one.

With the seat belt the device is to protect your head and chest from hitting the dash/steering wheel. Given that this is just a few inches away (and the seat belt doesn’t directly constrain the head) an inch or two of slackness would be important, as could the risk of slipping out of the seat belt.

Thought experiment:

You are thrown from the bike and hit a rock exactly 200 cm away from the front of your head.

In one case there is 2.5 cm of foam on the rock, in another 2.5 cm of foam on the front of your head. In both cases your head must travel 197.5 cm until the foam causes it to decelerate. Indeed your head will even have less momentum in the first scenario.

The only issue I see with the ‘loose’ helmet is that it might slip and not protect your properly.

With modern helmets I actually find they can be beneficial in channelling the air and being more cooling.

I actually find they’re utterly useless at keeping my head cool and it regularly frustrates me (commuting 5 days a week and all), but I still wear them, just because that’s what I do.

Think it stems from the the local MTB group not allowing people on the ride without a helmet, and that’s how it is in the media. OH isn’t happy if I don’t wear a helmet (ie I forgot and can’t be bothered to turn around and get it).

I currently have two helmets which I alternate between when the padding of one or the other is in the wash. Seems to be the padding that makes me sweat. It creates an air barrier over my forehead. The padding in my old Catlike Leaf helmet no longer stuck to the inside of the helmet so I just did without it, much better. Had enough of the insulated brow so trimmed the padding in one of my current helmets but not used it yet.

Funny thing I commute for a few miles home then spend 15 minutes practising trackstands and wotnot and without the airflow I get really hot (less so no weather cooler). Despite the lack of danger in trackstand practice away from traffic or sharp drops or anything, still keep the goddamn helmet on, along with backpack.

So ingrained innit.

I actually find they’re utterly useless at keeping my head cool and it regularly frustrates me

Hmm, I do disagree and I run hot (to the extent even when fairly nippy I find myself taking off beanies to cool down when walking) but that said I do wonder how ingrained in me it is to assume it is helping out. Despite a few years back have been riding for a decent number of years and I do remember one difference between the mountain bike mags and the road bike mags was that the mtb mags had everyone riding wearing helmets really early on (vaguely remember it apparently being a photo requirement for mbuk back in the late 90s) so since I started with mtb it was consider normal.

Might be that I will be damn hot regardless and at least with a well set up helmet the pads will absorb the sweat before it hits my eyes.

I’m off on a ride tomorrow in the ayem for breakfast.   Won’t be wearing a helmet.

Hope I make it back alive. 🙁