Alpin – guten morgen, how’s your summer going btw? 🙂

I know singlespeeders are all shades of awesome alpin but that wasn’t my question 🙂

(oh and how did he get that fan belt into his rear triangle?)

Bike build counts more than rear suspension – I once rode my Global frame built up with wide bars and burly forks and I was a descending God. Built up as an XC bike with flat bars and rigid forks I’m much less confident down hills.

Bike build counts more than rear suspension – I once rode my Global frame built up with wide bars and burly forks and I was a descending God. Built up as an XC bike with flat bars and rigid forks I’m much less confident down hills.

So comparing HT to rigid then, not just different builds.

servus molgrips…. passt scho. 🙂

it’s ok. not working too much which means more riding. just had a mini break down on Tegernsee and found some new trails.

oh, and it’s 31°C today…. 🙂 balcony and beer.

It’s about 17 here, windy and wet. Bugger.

I have done some new northern riding though, which was fun.

it was wet here the beginning of last week. the trails were a mud bath, but fun….. mostly.

did you sort that out with the Amt?

Still no!

I’m terrible, but it’s getting so bad I have to do it this week.

F’in German red tape 🙁

🙂

Technique wise it took longer to master flat pedals on my HT so I say yes, it has helped my foot position at the very least.

So here’s a can of worms (dragged over from BMX, where it’s been done to death); does riding flats make you a better rider than using SPDs?

Ok Donk
I’ll clarify too

The bike doesn’t force or make the rider do anything. How each rider chooses to ride is entirely down to the rider rather than the bike.

Mol – glad you had a good ride, did you “think” anymore about the effect suspension can have on grip in mud?
Oh.. and do you want the frame?

No mildred, for the same reason I gave Donk 😉

😀

Come on, anyone else…?

The bike doesn’t force or make the rider do anything.

would you settle for HTs promote different line choice? There’s plenty of people on STW who have said that’s what switching from FS to HT did for them, even a few on this thread.

No not really
What lines are achievable by some riders using hardtails may still be unachievable by many other riders using full suspension bikes so I still stand by my view.

Mol – glad you had a good ride, did you “think” anymore about the effect suspension can have on grip in mud?

I’m still thinking. I don’t see any special role of mud. FS in general helps keep the tyre on the ground which maximises traction in all conditions, including muddy ones, but I don’t see how it helps specifically with mud. If a trail’s SMOOTH and muddy, I can’t see you’d be any better off with FS than with HT.

Don’t think I’m going to need the frame any more, things have changed a bit. Thanks tho.

If riding hardtails makes you a better rider, do the World Cup DH teams all train on hardtails, then use those skills to float over everything on a skills compensator come race day?

No problem abt the frame

But keep thinking about the effect suspension has on grip and try not to forget there’s no such thing as perfecty smooth entirely consistent mud. You’re nearly there . 😉

I’m slightly worried that of late I keep nodding when reading GW’s less combative posts…

I’ve never ridden a full sus but I can say that as someone who’s gone from newbie to not too bad within a relatively short space of time and has a fairly effective analytical mind, I go straight over big/bumpy/rough/loose stuff now that I’d always have ridden round in the past.

Hardtail (or rigid) is surely easier to learn many techniques on as there’s much more direct feedback and the geometry remains more constant under force. Full sus has more rear end grip and is less likely to kick you off the pedals when you hit things hard.

I think wanting to get better and doing things that will improve your riding (as opposed to riding the same trails progressively faster) will be more effective that just riding the same trails in vaguely the same way on a variety of bikes.

I’m slightly worried that of late I keep nodding when reading GW’s less combative posts…

He does generally make a lot of sense…..which makes it even more amusing when he continually pisses on people’s chips 😀

Riding a FS actually meant that I gained the confidence to start taking on much bigger things on my HT so I suppose it was the other way round for me.

What lines are achievable by some riders using hardtails may still be unachievable by many other riders using full suspension bikes

which has nothing to do with what I was saying

so I still stand by my view.

if you want, free country.

But keep thinking about the effect suspension has on grip and try not to forget there’s no such thing as perfecty smooth entirely consistent mud.

🙄

I believe my comments covered the situation you are talking about.

Oh and yes there is completely smooth consistent mud. Ever ridden in chalk country?

mud with the same water consistency on the surface right through to a few inches to a foot deep and uniformly wet/deep no matter what the lay of the land? 😯
No I have never heard of “chalk country” is it where willy wonka comes from?
Does this magical chalk country mud also smooth it’self out after each trye/footprint cuts through it?

Has everything to do with it Donk.

Does this magical chalk country mud

It’s not magic, mate, what are you talking about?

Chalk is a type of rock common in Southern England, which is very water soluble and soft. So the trails end up very soft and smooth and get really greasy in the wet.

But really, wtf are you talking about? Are you saying that FS is better when riding over other people’s tyre prints? This is getting really really stupid now.

There’s certainly one thing here that remains stupid.

Yes, of course suspension will grip better over footprints and ruts 🙄

If your bike has better small bump compliance then it stands to reason that it will both grip better and roll better over anything that isn’t billiard table flat Tarmac. However, much of that small bump compliance is as dependant on the tyres (carcass, pressure, tread, etc) as it is on suspension.

If you were starting from scratch I bet you’d progress quickest by starting out on a hardtail on flats and working towards racing on a full sus on clips.

Well I rode my hardtail yesterday and I still think it makes things easier especially when jumps are involved. Until I got used to it, I was overshooting stuff that I was coming up about right on with the fs. So I think my conclusion is that FS makes things harder for you (unless the trail is rough as ****) but offers more confidence to try the bigger stuff that you may not have wanted to on the HT.

GW, no matter how much you wish it were true, I am not in fact stupid 🙂

8)

Riding fast on a hardtail requires full range of motion movements, using your legs and arms as shock absorbers.

Riding a full sus reasonably quick doesn’t require that, some people will get away with blundering through without picking lines or really moving much, sitting down a lot.

Now take the hardtail person who has practised hitting rough stuff fast and then give them another 5″ of travel as well as their legs and there’s a good chance they’ll be quicker than the “why do i need to pick a line on a full suss???” type rider.

Riding a full sus reasonably quick doesn’t require that,

Yes it does. Different movements, but you still need to use your body. I don’t sit down on technical descents any more than I did on a HT.

You can still learn to ride on a FS.

I don’t sit down on technical descents any more than I did on a HT.

Ah but would you have done if you hadn’t ridden the hardtail first 😉

Someone posted a video up there of the guy on the full suspension bike sat down through everything. Yeah obviously you can learn these things on a full suss but the consequences of not doing them aren’t as severe so the learning curve might not be as steep.

Personally I’d say yes, but I think it’s a very personal question.

I started life on a rigid, went to HT, then to heavy long travel FS, then back to short travel FS, then back to HT. I was fastest and fittest on normal UK trails on my rigid and HT because I got out more and it felt more spritely. I was fastest on downhill sections on my long travel full sus, despite being less fit. So there’s no right or wrong answer.

I’ve moved back to a HT and can do my usual trails notably faster against the watch, find it more fun and it _feels_ faster too. I find it’s a lot less forgiving than the FS was despite being about the same weight and front travel, and as such I’m remembering having to be more careful with my line selection and how to manage technical sections I’d just have flown through on the FS without even thinking about it. I’d say it’s improved my technique, my speed and my fitness. But if I were less confident, more fit and tended to do more downhill routes I’d probably have concluded the opposite.

Ah but would you have done if you hadn’t ridden the hardtail first

Doubt it. The ‘attack position’ for want of a better name necessitates standing up, regardless of suspension. You can’t handle the bike anything like as well sitting down of course.

Stupid = lacking intelligence

Intelligence = ability to learn, reason and understand.

I certainly do not wish for any more stupid people.

One could posit that riding ANY bike will make you a better rider than arguing on the Internet will…

Sounds like you’re the only stupid one GW, you waffle shite, arguing for the sake of it.

Grow up.