… kids have tried to get ‘permission’, the local council have been obstructive, so what do you expect to happen? Kids are kids.

My advice would be for them to find an adult who cares and has some understanding of the problem and process and get that adult to help them work their way through the system (I think I suggested this several posts ago). It sounds to me like they are getting bad advice from the adults in their lives, saying “crack on, what do the council expect”.

My advice would be for them to find an adult

So how does that help them find their own way in life, if they feel they have to have their hands held at every turn?

What advice would you give?

I already gave advice early in the thread. If you want to resolve the dispute, you will have to do it by talking to the people you disagree with and persuading them that you can work together. If that’s not possible, then the dispute won’t be resolved.

If that’s not possible, then the dispute won’t be resolved.

So then what?

So then what?

Then it’s not resolved and the OP will be disappointed.

So how does that help them find their own way in life, if they feel they have to have their hands held at every turn?

See it as an apprenticeship, they are learning how to use the system, they won’t be kids for ever some of this is about turning them into decent adults

It’s also about building relationships, the council will struggle to do that with kids, it’s far easier with an adult (that’s 18 not 81) who can bridge from the kids to the council and from the council to the kids. It’s far easier to get a decent compromise if you have someone who can understand both sides of the issue

Where on Wimbledon common,

Locals only!

Hahahahahhaah hahahahha hahaha haha haha hahahahah hah ha ha ha…

I thought this was going to be like the Surrey Hills doubles. I’d barely even call those jumps. They are certainly not dangerous.

I can assure you that similar ‘jumps’ which appear and disappear in the woods near me can be very highly dangerous to middle aged blokes who failed to learn to jump as kids.

re. Wim Common,which I used to live on the very edge of… nothing built on the common is secret. Don’t even pretend to think it is. You’re probably recycling a cross country course – people run on most of every inch of track in that place, and know it inside out,
Cutting down trees is asking for deserved trouble. And contributes to keeping bikes banned from the bits they should be allowed

Update on the situation for anyone interested:

Yesterday I was out riding and (not much digging going on, just riding) and the parks patrol came down and started telling people to stop riding or risk a 60 pound fine. The only paths you are able to ride down are the mains paths. There are currently no signs saying this but when I asked they said it wasn’t a new thing. A lot of the riders will have no idea about this so there will be conflict if they come back and catch people riding/digging. I can’t seem to find anything in the bylaws about not being able to ride so it is a bit of a suprise change.

I am no longer a minor so more worried about recieving a fine. I have spent so much money on my new bike that I don’t want to risk a fine or even getting my name taken down.

The email to the council is still in the works, but I have turned my attention to another piece of land – a small piece of land that is owned by the Royal Parks but outside the park wall. It has great elevation and a bit of trail alreay carved in. There is atleast enough space for two lines and maybe even a pushup.

Maps and google streetview:

In this pic the blue line is where the proposed trail would go:

I have sent off a formal email to the Royal Parks so will update when they get back to me. Hoping for the best anyway.

I’d love to see how they are going to start fining you £60 when they have no authority to take your details. How are they going to track you down if you don’t pay the fine? It’s not like your driving a vehicle which is registered to you. Sound like a bunch of overzealous tits.

Byelaws are here –

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/council/decision_making_council/byelaws_and_local_legislation

There’s a specific rule in the commons page about not cycling except where allowed (law 7b).

FWIW, the Teddington jump track has got some massive (to a 45yo mincer) gap jumps on it now, so I reckon that’s where the kids need to be hanging out in the Council’s eyes.

@Jimddubleyou

Thanks for the bylaw, I did spend a while looking in those but the wording is wordy and I must have missed it. However, unlike some commons East Sheen doesn’t have any signs saying you can’t cycle IIRC, but I’ll have another look when I’m there next.

As mentioned above, unfortunately the council does love to tell people to go to TL, but I feel it is dangerous and very much tailored to the DJ/BMX, which most MTBers don’t have. Also it becomes very crowded at weekends. The advantage of having another area would share the load and give access to people who live in Sheen/North Richmond.

@belgianwaffle1 – fair points on Teddington, it’s a massive borough and there’s definitely room for more facilities.

I think you’re onto a loser with the Royal Parks, but good luck nonetheless! That whole ridge line (within the park) has potential for more than a couple of blue rated trails.

@jumdubleyou

Funilly enough the only reason that I know that stretch of land is still Royal Park’s is because I tried to dig there myself thinking it was a kind of no man’s land. 10 minutes in a guy told me to stop and that I should contact them directly. He mentioned that it could become a trail so that is why I am giving it a go. The rest of the park is obviously off limits as it is very well protected. Let’s see what they say anyway.

I’d love to see how they are going to start fining you £60 when they have no authority to take your details.

of course they have if you are doing something against the law.

I’m struggling to see anyone being prepared to give you permission to build a trail that close to the road. Cycle path maybe, jump line, no chance.

I also think you’re onto a loser if you’re planning anything on a site with byelaws against cycling, immediately moves you out of civil law into criminal (although you’d already have crossed from trespass to criminal damage if there was any significant building).

Good luck but don’t hold your breath.

PS given any thought to long term maintenance, construction methods etc.? If by some fluke they do engage they will have lots of questions, you need to be prepared.

the parks patrol came down and started telling people to stop riding or risk a 60 pound fine.
…
I don’t want to risk a fine or even getting my name taken down.

How’s that going to work? “That’ll be £60.” Sorry squire, no money on me. “Right, I’m taking your name and address.” B Johnson, 10 Downing Street, London. “Got any ID?” No. Tatty bye!

Sounds to me an awful lot like they made up the fine idea to try and discourage you. Who do they work for, the council?

of course they have if you are doing something against the law.

The police don’t have the authority to randomly take your details unless they’re detaining you, let alone a glorified gardener.

@tjagain were talking about park patrol not the police. The police can take your details if you are under caution. If your not under caution you can just walk away and they can’t do anything.

Sorry I missed it was park patrol

As regards the police – then they simply caution you.

I very much doubt with the amount the police budget has been cut in the last 10 years that the police will be on patrol with the overzealous park patrol (council). I’d imagine with the serious amount of knife/gang crime in London the police will be focusing their time on these criminals opposed to some kids building jumps on private land.

Not really holding my breath on anything at the moment unfortunately.

given any thought to long term maintenance, construction methods etc.? If by some fluke they do engage they will have lots of questions, you need to be prepared.

In quite a naive way, no I haven’t thought of that. Really I’m just seeing if there is a chance and if there is then I will have to go away and create a really good plan.

I’m struggling to see anyone being prepared to give you permission to build a trail that close to the road. Cycle path maybe, jump line, no chance.

It’s hard to see in the photos but there is atlease 15m between the road and the wall, and a large line of trees seperating it. It gets thinner the lower you go down the road so the features would have to stop sooner.

Looking at starting a petition and I am wondering where to do it – maybe change.org or gov.uk? Really looking for the one that would be noticed the most by the council.

There has been a nextdoor post posted by a mother of one of the children who rides on the common:

https://nextdoor.co.uk/p/_hDnxj2TJ-KY?utm_source=share&extras=MTc1OTIxOTE1MzIwMDI%3D&init_source=copy_link_share

Seems to be quite a lot of support.

Went there today and conditions where very good, even learnt how to whip finally. Unfortunately most jumps have been taken down so I had to make do.

Seems to be quite a lot of support.

There always is when somebody else needs to do something

Unless you find a few adults to take a lead and bridge between riders and the council it’s going nowhere

Signing a petition asking for others to do something, fill your boots, they’ll still flatten the jumps

Obvioulsy the petition is not even going to be close to resolving the issue. I just want it to be a gauge to measure the support for the legitimisation of building trails in the area. Also a way to mark the start of a campaign to change rules in the area.

Some well written letters and planning will give us the best chance I think. Richmond council doesn’t really care about the interests of children as that is not who is voting for them so we need to show there is support from all ages.

Some well written letters and planning will give us the best chance I think.

Well written letters saying something must be done by someone else will give you give you two hopes, unfortunately Bob is dead

Unless you can find someone the council can work with who the diggers will listen to how on earth do you expect the council with their duty of care responsibilities to sign off on anything?

Article just came out on LBC:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london-children-threatened-fines-cyclists-lockdown-easing-sheen-common-richmond/?__twitter_impression=true

The council say they are clamping down on any digging in the park, however Diana says her son was not doing this and only used what was there in the park already.

Similarly, James said he and his daughter were just cycling, adding: “We are not shovelers – it is too much like hard work.”

Richmond Council response
A spokesperson for the Richmond Council Parks Service told LBC: “Responsible cycling on designated paths is not only allowed but is a great form of exercise, however there has been a recent issue with some users digging in the woodland area of Sheen Common to create off-road trails with ramps and dips.

“This activity is damaging to this important habitat and presents a risk to other users and is therefore not permitted. Anyone causing damage to the common could be fined as a result.

“Parkguard patrol are responsible for making sure park users, including children, know that cycling is only allowed on designated paths and ensuring that the public are aware of any fines that could be enforced under the council’s PSPO.”

belgianwaffle1
Free Member
So the council have started cracking down on the massive digging activity at my local.

For context, I live in SW London, and it is a forest owned by the National Trust on loan to Richmond Council. The jumps have been there since 2009 but recently there has been a flurry of activity with lots of peopl building and riding the jumps. These have been great fun and have improved my skills and confidence a lot.

Now, the not so great part.

The council has picked up on this and the environmental board is not happy. Last week, all the jumps were knocked down and berms flattened etc. This made a lot of 11-14 year olds not very happy at all. On came yesterday, and 25 people with shovels came down and rebuilt it all within a matter of hours.

Then a disgruntled older lady who I had never met before but seemed to have a reputation for being unhappy came down to the jumps and started taking pix of all of the jumps and argued that people could fall over them in the dark and that it was very expensive to repair (1000s of pounds).

The issue is that there will always be a demand for more jumps and a ready supply of boys with shovels geared up to make new jumps. I was wondering if anyone has had a similar situation and managed to resolve it? We are drafting a letter to the council at the mo but doesn’t look super promising.

TIA.

No, it doesn’t. Your gang of kids with shovels has zero chance of getting permission now. They have put themselves in the position of being outlaws with nobody willing to publicly support them.

Reasonably positive LBC article. The council come off pretty badly. Sounds like they’d be more amenable if they had a few more complaints about dog walkers to even up the numbers

Reasonably positive LBC article.

Not really. The council has said that cycling on the main paths isn’t a problem, but that they are concerned about unauthorized digging. The cyclists quoted denied having anything to do with digging. Nobody is willing to come out and publicly support the kids who were doing the digging. The OP wanted to know how to get permission for digging. Having nobody willing to publicly advocate for digging means that there is zero chance of getting permission for it.

Reasonably positive LBC article. The council come off pretty badly. Sounds like they’d be more amenable if they had a few more complaints about dog walkers to even up the numbers

Unfortunately dog walkers vote and tend to get very ranty when they can’t take Fenton wherever they want. Kids who don’t vote and can’t find an adult to talk to the council are going to struggle

Just how is this any issue what so ever? If the owner wishes something to happen then thats that. Unless there is legislation to say otherwise. Anything else is pure selfish greed.

Not really.

You’ve obviously not read many other articles about cycling in the local press. That really does count as reasonably positive

Yeah I must say this is a bit dissapointing that no adult is coming out in full support (as @big_n_daft predicted).

The council say they are clamping down on any digging in the park, however Diana says her son was not doing this and only used what was there in the park already.

This is untrue as I know the guy. Don’t know why she didn’t have the balls to just admit it and move forwards.

Seems like a bit of a dead end at the moment.

Just how is this any issue what so ever? If the owner wishes something to happen then thats that. Unless there is legislation to say otherwise. Anything else is pure selfish greed.

To be fair it’s probably kids being kids and it’s gone to far, there is lots to be said for encouraging healthy outdoor activities as a diversion from other more problematic things to occupy their time. The question is whether this is the right place, can be brought under a semblance of control and can stakeholders be appeased. All it takes is one person 18+ who is prepared to step up and enter a dialogue. It may not work but it’s worth trying

pure selfish greed.

There are vast areas of the UK that are completely out of bounds to the general public as they are privately owned, a lot of the time by extremely rich people who rarely set foot on said land. Perfect example is a lot of the moors on the eastern Pennines, lots of it is owned by Arab royals who turn up in their chauffeur driven Range Rovers to shoot grouse for a few weeks a year and because of this no one else is allowed to ride bikes or horses at any time, this is ‘pure selfish greed’ by my definition, kids building dirt jumps is definitely NOT, its kids being kids. As far as building jumps in South London goes I can’t offer any helpful advice but wish op the best of luck, you would think anything that helps steer kids away from gangs/crime would be a no brainer these days

Who is actually threatening fines? A private security firm? I’m not sure of the relevant law, but might it actually be an offence of some kind, to demand money, especially from children, for something I’m not sure even the park’s owners are legally allowed to do?

Good LBC article. More power to the kidz!

There are vast areas of the UK that are completely out of bounds to the general public as they are privately owned, a lot of the time by extremely rich people who rarely set foot on said land. Perfect example is a lot of the moors on the eastern Pennines, lots of it is owned by ….s who turn up in their chauffeur driven Range Rovers to shoot grouse for a few weeks a year and because of this no one else is allowed to ride bikes or horses at any time, this is ‘pure selfish greed’ by my definition

Their nationality/ethnic origin/whatever is irrelevant, plenty of home-grown ****s who ‘own’ land, but I agree with that 100%. It’s not farmland, responsible and careful use harms nobody, and restricting it’s access is just privileged selfish ****ishness.

@bridges

It looks like Richmond Council are paying a private firm ‘Parkguard’ to enforce rules.

I don’t know what they can or cannot enforce really, so I can’t comment on that.

Their nationality/ethnic origin/whatever is irrelevant, plenty of home-grown ****s who ‘own’ land

Agreed

I don’t know what they can or cannot enforce really, so I can’t comment on that.

The council has the power to levy fines, they devolve that to their agents who may or may not be directly employees