Replacing my ancient Hifi – er……helllp!

ourmaninthenorth – Member

Woppit – you’re going to have to get a sense of humour over this, or you’ll end up like all the other sheep naimees….

Ha. Ha.

The last phone call I ever made to a hifi dealer (probably the best respected Naim dealer in the East Midlands). I swear on the life of my kids this is how it went….

Me: Do you stock Lavry DAC’s?
Them: No, we used to, but we didn’t make enough margin on them to justify the hassle of importing them
Me: OK, Thanks. Were they any good?
Them: Yes, a couple of they guys who work here replaced their Naim CD5(??) with them. They thought they were great.
Me: Isn’t the Naim CD(???) expensive.
Them: Yes, they are 10 grand.
Me: OK thanks. Goodbye

Why the dealer chose to be so candid, I’ll never know. I’d spent a lot of money there, and he’s admitted that something that costs 10k can be replaced with something sounds better and costs a grand. (Even more, as you don’t need a preamp + PSU + PSU, so that’s more gear that got sold).
I went ahead and bought the DAC, and you know what, it wiped the floor with my high end British CD player. About that time, I bought a pair of decent Active monitors. Job done. Never thought about upgrading since.
I know a lot of people who rate Naim gear, but I don’t know anyone who rates it who has listened with an open mind at the alternatives. The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.

The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.

About what?

As an active member of the Naim community during the Larvy days, no one was replacing a top of the line Naim CD player with a Larvy DAC, lower end models yes CD5’s etc.

The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.

And studio equipment is very different to home equipment for many reason, your comment is toss. Its like riding an XC bike on a DH race, both bikes to a non cycling enthusiastic but to us very different tools.

About what?

..the fact that the audio performance is not very good for the money? It’s a lifestyle product sold to impressionable men.

There is no difference between studio and home in terms of what is being asked. Quality is quality.

The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.

plenty of ‘audio’ manufacturers have a toe in both camps. PMC, ATC, bryston, Harbeth, Nagra, Benchmark, Dynaudio, focal amongst others

And studio equipment is very different to home equipment for many reason, your comment is toss. Its like riding an XC bike on a DH race, both bikes to a non cycling enthusiastic but to us very different tools.

This.

Thought you meant the excellent Gary Fisher bike of the same name, which is now of course no more, given that Trek have swallowed GF products whole. So if anbody does have an ancient or not so ancient Hi-Fi, don’t replace it, ride it. It’s a wonderful ride and will soon be a collectors’ item!

To be fair, my dad is a huge music fan and has never thought too much about top end hifi. He had lots of Rega kit before. I played him some stuff through my system recently and he realised there is a whole other world of proper hifi that does in fact get you closer to the music, he went out, listened to everything he could find and now has 3 Naim Olive systems because he said they were the best stuff he heard. No buyer preference or brand loyalty, just a good set of ears that knows his music inside out.

Naim is good kit.

I feel duty bound to confess that the treble dial on my 3020i is turned to the left slightly as the wooden floors since moving meant everything sounded a bit bright.

I also have the spikes of my floorstanders sat on 2p pieces so they don’t mark the floor. They sound better tails up.

treble dial

🙄

😉

I also have the spikes of my floorstanders sat on 2p pieces so they don’t mark the floor. They sound better tails up.

I find them better end on…

Hi-fi threads – always a larf

Torminalis, I counteracted the muddying of the soundstage this caused by painting the edges of my cds green (i also painted the edge of my ipod green, but the effect wasn’t as pronounced) and I sat on some half squash balls to isolate me from the sofa.

Turnerguy, I tried end on and found it lifted the tweeters fractionally too high. I will admit that ‘tails up’ is a bit of a compromise though…

stumpy01 you have a gloss finnish on your floor? i had the same problem,a friend suggested wire wool, but i find it makes my ears itchy.

blutac works better than spikes on a hard floor imho

… What about directional cables? Personally I find my elections zapping backwards and forwards at up to 20000 times a second work best when the little arrows point towards the amp…

Had a quick scan of this thread and can’t help but think its gone a bit off topic and really solved the OP’s problem.

Buy a copy of What Hi-Fi – its not the best mag by far but it does have a handy database at the back with lots of components, costs and ratings. This should bring you roughly up to speed with whats good / bad and how much things cost today.

Then pop down to your nearest Richer Sounds store and see what deals they have going. I guess it vary from store to store but when I last popped into my local store (years ago now) the prices were very competitive and the help and advice was very good with no pushy sales and a full demo in a proper room.

With around £1000 to spend on a whole system you are going to be looking at a fairly low end / budget solution but it should still produce a good enough sound.

The most important thing is to have a demo and listen. A certain amp might have amazing reviews and cost more than you want to spend. But if you don’t like the sound or can’t justify paying extra for a slight increase in quality then there is no point in buying it.

I used hate my dads setup but it was his system and he liked it the way it was. Even after he listened to my more expensive and “better” system. Use the reviews as a rough guide but trust your ears.

hope that helps.

Don’t forget to ’Belt Up’.[/url]

This chap was taken very seriously by the Hi Fi press.

Putting little foil triangles on your cd’s and a piece of paper under one of your chair legs is just the first step to better sound.
No, of course you can’t measure the effects, silly.

Can’t just be me who remembers him being taken very seriously seriously by Jimmy Hughes etc.

Further article from ’Stereophile’.

…just remember where Hi Fi magazines get their money from i.e. advertising.

Have a look in them for sure …

..but then go and listen to a set of AVI ADM’s … Internal DAC , 4 amps individually designed for each driver and all the other myriad advantages of an active set up 😀

Not quite on the same level as the Quad NAD or Naim audio but for something completely different and simple to use try the Vita R4i
http://www.ruarkaudio.com/
Amazing sound, no messy cables ipod dock, cd player, usb input and dab radio.
So impressed with mine I got the R2i and R1, you could even link them wirelessly together (with the right bit of kit) for the same sound right through the house and buy an ipod for less than £1k.
Just an idea 🙂

I find the reviews comments in HiFi World to be more reliable.

I remember when Audiolab was the darling of What HiFi when I was buying my first system, and I found their stuff very disappointing and ended up buying Quad amps.

For £1000 the OP will be able to put together a system that sounds very good with judicious use of the 2nd hand market.

The AVI active speakers might be a good idea but possibly a stretch of the budget.

AudioGold have an AVI pre/power amp for £600 for example, and AudioGold seem to price a little on the high side:

http://audiogold.co.uk/products-page/hi-fi-power-amplifiers/avi-s2000mp-pre-amp/

Hmmmm…

So studio equipment is perfect due to required application, OK so all studio kit must sound the same then…? Surely must be the case as sound engineers need ‘perfect reproduction’ to master our music.

No I here you say…. Ahhh, a bit like bikes then. No such thing as perfect just millions of people with their own opinion about what’s good. Wine, food, houses all the same. You can’t quantify perfect so everyone has a go.

Definitely go active though. Always seems to me to be a more cost effective route to better sound.

The problem with Hi-Fi mags is that they are very much biased towards NEW=better.

How many revisions of Mission speakers have there been since the 90s. All award-winning and better than the last. But I’m pretty sure if you put their latest up against a pair of Rega Kytes, or something else that was just done ‘right’ from the 90s (or earlier) they would still be given a kicking.

It’s basically a minefield. I would find someone you trust, take their advice and settle back and enjoy. I basically became happy with my Hi-Fi as soon as I found Larry and Ed at http://theaudioworks.co.uk/ before that I’d been buying the latest and greatest (and discounted) from Marantz/Pioneer/NAD/Mission/QED/etc without ever really settling.

I think Alex has nailed it.

Go down to your local independent and listen to a few systems and buy the one YOU like. Don’t get dragged into other peoples opinions or items on sale or feel like a bargain.

Get one that is nice on your ears.

But do consider seriously if you REALLY want to keep a cd player.

Buy a copy of What Hi-Fi

What Hi-Fi’s online review of a USB cable http://www.whathifi.com/review/silver-line-usb%5D :

“Its performance is energetic and lively. It’s rhythmic, and does a good job of handling timing. Overall, it’s an entertaining listen. So far so good.

Unfortunately, the detail and texture isn’t all there. The Silver-line robs instruments of their characteristic textures, resulting in a less faithful reproduction.

And it’s not particularly subtle, making it difficult to differentiate between the different levels of sound.”

That’s a USB cable 😯

I would have great difficulty taking anything they say seriously about…well…anything, really.

…glitchy bump…

That’s a USB cable

What’s your point? They used a cable and wrote about how the system sounded with it in place (presumably as opposed to some other cable, which made a difference). Duh.

What’s your point? They used a cable and wrote about how the system sounded with it in place (presumably as opposed to some other cable, which made a difference). Duh.

You kill me Woppit, you really do. A triumph of marketing over actual tech. Have you ever heard of a bit parity algorithm?

You kill me Woppit, you really do. A triumph of marketing over actual tech. Have you ever heard of a bit parity algorithm?

there are problems with USB and DACs apparently, which is why async USB seems to be the current flavour.

This must be why people hear differences with different USB cables – not that the cable is better or not, just that the system is working better with it. If you can hear differences with different USB cables that their is a fault in the system.

HiFi World seems to have meaningful reviews of old equipment, ones that I am familiar with seem to be correct.

You need a dealer that will let you trial the gear in your own home as well – differences in rooms and furniture (and background noise) mean that a system that the best at the dealers might not sound the best at home.

Torminalis – Member

What’s your point? They used a cable and wrote about how the system sounded with it in place (presumably as opposed to some other cable, which made a difference). Duh.

You kill me Woppit, you really do. A triumph of marketing over actual tech. Have you ever heard of a bit parity algorithm?

No. What is it?

By my understanding (and I welcome the chance to learn more if anyone knows better) USB is a standard, a combined software/hardware standard that ensures conformity, you know, standardisation. There is no improvement to be had above and beyond the standard by employing better hardware because it is inherently limited by the software element.

If you use a cable that is below the standard then it is not USB. It is a bit of wire with USB connectors. Same with HDMI.

Asynch dacs use another protocol that sits on top of USB to ensure a consistent and predictable flow of data but the quality of the wire will make no difference at all, unless it is sub standard, in which case, as I said it ain’t USB.

Oh and there are “audiophile” rj45 cables too which is even more hilarious given Ethernet error correction etc..

What’s your point?

Here’s another one http://www.whathifi.com/review/furutech-formula-2%5D

“In our tests we found this well-built cable – connected to an Audiolab M-DAC – enabled our digital music system to deliver extra bass, insight and depth than more basic designs.”

USB is a way of getting digital data (a stream of 1s and 0s) from one place to another. As Torminalis says it either works or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then (like Turnerguy says) there’s a fault in the system.

In your music system the 1s and 0s represent the audio data (in some sort of encoding). Imagining that a USB cable can modify those 1s and 0s in a way which subtly and consistently changes the tonal balance or rhythmic attack of the music encoded in them is so far off the mark that… well, I don’t really know where to start.

When you connect your digital camera to your laptop, do your digital photos gain extra vibrancy, colour separation and sense of perspective, depending on which brand of USB cable you use to copy them over?

No, mine neither.

loved that USB cable review!

air as the transmition medium probably has more of an influence on the sound you perceive than any cable,

hmmm.. the quantity of cable and connectors (wordclock cables from Altai and regular phono leads used instead of a coax lead) and generic (but quite nice) VCAs etc that your average signal goes through (even in top dollar studios) etc etc, before going anywhere near a 2 track master … sure lets talk about 1m of cable changing the subtle timbre of a recording!

kit does sound different, no dispute, but really…so much hype, back to the music please.

*goes to clean air purifier filter and adjust humidiy levels in the listening room*

I think becoming an audiophile/namist stops you enjoying music. This threads funny.

Have you ever heard of a bit parity algorithm?

Well, if there’s error detection and correction taking place, isn’t it possible that a particular USB cable will drop fewer bits than another, even when both are compliant with the USB standard?

Maybe a DAC which is having to correct fewer errors will output a different analogue signal to that from a DAC which is correcting more. Conversion is happening in real time, and correcting errors is an overhead.

Agreed – people have the right to have any hobby they like , no matter how geeky. But for me if I started worrying about this stuff it would kill music for me

I haven’t read the actual review, but I think it’s safe to assume that the “USB” cable mentioned was being compared against another “type” of “USB” cable, otherwise, how would the reviewer be able to comment on it’s individual performance in relation to the system of which it was part?

If that is the case, then possibly the other cable, or cables, were of the “non-‘USB'” type that Torminalis mentioned. That being the case, I still don’t see why it’s risible that the reviewer could hear differences in music reproduction, something with which Torminalis presumably agrees, given his comment:

If you use a cable that is below the standard then it is not USB. It is a bit of wire with USB connectors.

The debate about cable affecting sound has been done to death elsewhere many times, of course…

Cable stuff really is snake oil in DB tests the most golden eared always fail to recognise the uber cables. Even for a million dollars of James Randi’s money. Digital cables even more so.

However no-one trumps this shyster.

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3221&customer_id=PAA1149014313723LFBMPPOYNHOELZYN