Replacing my ancient Hifi – er……helllp!

I’d second a lot of the opinons expressed above. I have a pair of Adam A7’s I use in the studio, they are really nice if you don’t need loads of level / low end. There are tons of nice active speakers about, some of which look a fair bit more domestically acceptable than the Adam’s. Klien and Hummel, PMC, ATC, Focal, AVI, Acoustic Energy (AE22 Active’s)…there are loads of nice speakers which offer far better value for money than ‘hifi’ speakers.

Sound on Sound classifieds, pink fish media or ebay are good places to find s/h gear. If you buy s/h, it’s well within your budget to get something which will sound really good, and will retain a lot (if not all) of it’s value after many years of making music.

+1 for active speakers,just plug them into your source.

if you got an old half decent PC you can make it a media player and have all your music movies and streaming stuff in one place, no need for fancy kit!

http://www.mythbuntu.org – or similar like VLC player for Mac/PC etc.

I still think the old LPs kill any digital format, even 24 bit 192k…I have installled hi spec pro kit in loads of recording facilites and still prefer to listen to a scratchy LPs for pure “vibe”
rega make some nice TTs http://www.rega.co.uk/

Jitter shows up as frequency deviation – easy to detect using a test signal and a spectrum analyser. Biggest problem with DACs is normally inter-modulation products which limit spurious free dynamic range (the actual real dynamic range you can use). Again, easy to measure, just use a two tone test signal and a spectrum analyser. Quantifying DACs / digital sources isn’t that hard to do – loads of off the shelf test kit for it. All the problems are the same as with any broadcast equipment eg TV transmitters, Mobile phone base stations etc.

I have a pair of PMC TB2 sat here doing nothing (in oak) I’ll let them go for £400 if any of you audio nuts want a high quality transmission line standmount to listen to MP3’s with 🙄
I would look at some of the cheap dacs instead of a cd player. I use a beresford and can’t fault it for the money.
I like the look of the naim unitiqu (sp?) shoebox thingy for fuss free digital audio, bit pricy though.

I’m not getting this preference for active over passive speaker thing at all ok maybe they could be more convenient but essentially both are speakers driven by amps.. How does having the amp in the same box as the speaker make it better? Both components Amp and Speaker are still rated individually.
If anything I’d have thought keeping the transformers and electronics away from the speaker to be preferable.

I’m not getting this preference for active over passive speaker thing at all ok maybe they could be more convenient but essentially both are speakers driven by amps.. How does having the amp in the same box as the speaker make it better? Both components Amp and Speaker are still rated individually.
If anything I’d have thought keeping the transformers and electronics away from the speaker to be preferable.

I started writing this lot out then thought someone else must have already? And they had…

The main difference is that the crossover is at line level rather than speaker level.
The crossover is less compromised and can perform much better.
The crossover can be active rather than passive, and can apply equalisation where necessary.
The amplifier is directly connected to the driver, with no crossover getting in the way and corrupting the control.
The sensitivity and impedance of the drive units can be chosen to meet the speaker’s own requirements.
The designer can trade power and efficiency.
The drive units don’t need the same efficiency – they can use what works best.
A single drive unit generally presents an easier and less reactive load to the amplifier.
Distortion from one amplifier doesn’t impact the other drive unit.
Drive units can be time-aligned by delay-lines.

Interesting stuff. I was thinking of using the 6 channels of my Amp to drive my speaker’s drivers separately – sort of convert them to active if you will. Would any inveterate tweakers be happy to help me with this project. Basically I need to build a line-level crossover to match the ones in the speakers, and if possible add level matching…. Any takers? My electronics is OK, but I don’t have a degree in audio design!

TIA

I was thinking of using the 6 channels of my Amp to drive my speaker’s drivers separately – sort of convert them to active if you will. Would any inveterate tweakers be happy to help me with this project. Basically I need to build a line-level crossover to match the ones in the speakers, and if possible add level matching.

Look at something like Audiolense and Audiolense XO for using a computer and software to do both room correction and crossover generation:

http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html

or acourate:

http://www.audiovero.de/en/

IMO these near field studio monitors a few are recommending may really not the best choice. They are designed for exactly that. Sitting close by and analysing recordings.
You will notice Adam also do a home range designed for home listening you will also notice that the price is significantly more say £2500 for an active set .there is a reason for this and it’s not just marketing…

I’ve experienced similar actives before in studio installations and in the builds in the workshop in my previous job in the broadcast industry. They generally had a harsh sound and listening out of the sweet spot sounded weird really.

Also depending on your layout cabling could be an issue in the home depending on what sources you want to connect especially if one also needs a screen connected.

Thanks for the help people…I’ll be looking into that.

IMO these near field studio monitors a few are recommending may really not the best choice. They are designed for exactly that. Sitting close by and analysing recordings.
You will notice Adam also do a home range designed for home listening you will also notice that the price is significantly more say £2500 for an active set .there is a reason for this and it’s not just marketing…

I’ve experienced similar actives before in studio installations and in the builds in the workshop in my previous job in the broadcast industry. They generally had a harsh sound and listening out of the sweet spot sounded weird really.

Also depending on your layout cabling could be an issue in the home depending on what sources you want to connect especially if one also needs a screen connected.

Total garbage.

You know why the Adam home range are more expensive than the pro’s? The finish of the speakers and the labour time associated with it. Go to Musikmesse or any **** hi-fi show and you’ll see the same ATC speakers at both and they are amongst the best in the world.

Active pro’s almost always have a flatter frequency response than hi-fi guff so you’re definitely getting a truer version of the recording and sound that’s most likely going to be less fatiguing than hi-fi models that are almost always tweaked to sound exciting. Recording engineers spend countless hours in front of pro monitors, way more than the average hi-fi geek. If any true pro speaker was “harsh” it wouldn’t be very well received would it?

Regarding sounding odd off axis, I’d say most pro speakers I’ve heard do a far better job than thin baffled hi-fi fashion models. The tweeters are normally higher quality (especially at similar prices) and usually have wider dispersion.

It’s all a myth, just like cables. The hi-fi industry wants people to believe that exotically veneered boxes with crappy speaker level inputs will sound better than what the guys use who master the music we listen too. it’s such a obvious con but it just keeps rolling on….

My streaming solution is:

Macbook Pro, AudioEngine D1 DAC Connected to Apple TV (also connected to 42″ TV) and AudioEngine 2 Active Speakers.

I can stream music from itunes to the speakers, stream internet tv through the tv and speakers, it sounds great, i’m very happy with it.

.. Definitely worth checking out AVI’s active solutions. Their original ADM 9’s were well received by both hifi and pro audio worlds which is quite unusual… The AVI forum has lots of interesting articles on snake oil type guff surrounding “hifi” obsessions with cables and the like too..

.. Oh and the AVI’s have cables included, which by the designers own admission are pretty cheap but as good as anything out there 🙂

is a reason for this and it’s not just marketing…

No, it’s profitering, from gullible middle aged men.

I couldn’t agree less with anything you’ve posted. Decent monitors are not harsh, quite the opposite. I’ve done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.

The worst part of it is that the hifi companies will sell an upgraded CD player / amp / PSU to help cure the harshness, in what basically something designed badly 🙁

I’m lucky to have a friend with a very good PMC active system, when he moved from passive PMC speakers to the same units but active the difference was significant. There is no reason to assume that studio speakers will be bright they are all as different as passives. Technically active is always going to be better and if well implemented should sound better too.

I have passives in the lounge but direct coupled (no bass/mid crossover) and small low cost studio actives elsewhere and I’m amazed at just how well they sound compared to the pretty expensive passives.

lodious – Member

I’ve done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.

😯 😯 😯

Worst system I’ve heard was a full Linn / Naim setup, Isobariks etc, at a Bolton HiFi show some time ago.
The tech guys apologised and said they had absolutely no idea why it was basically unlistenable.

Conversely, the little Pink Triangle/Creek/Epos system in the same room a day later was wonderful.

Lot’s of similarities between hi-fi and religion. With both, you have to make your own mind up before you sign up and hand over the cash.

Tom, thanks for the email, will get back to you later today.

To the OP, I say follow your instincts keep it simple and stick with the Marantz stuff. A CD6004 cd player and a PM6004 amp, with your budget you can add a Project debut turntable and have a look at Q Acoustics floor standers. All quite mainstream stuff and highly regarded in the press(take from that what you will). Because of its relative popularity you should get some good package deals and of course audition the stuff first. I’ve been using Marantz stuff for years and have always been happy, I also have a project debut and it works really really well.

The tech guys apologised and said they had absolutely no idea why it was basically unlistenable

Uh-huh…

Had the system not had at least three day’s warm-up before demonstration, perchance?

You can’t get much simpler than a pair of AVI ADM9 RSS’s – 4 amps and a very high quality DAC inside them! Plug in a digital or analogue source and off you go 🙂

Er, yes Woppit, they did.
Apologise, that is.
No idea how long it had been set up.

I do like Naim stuff, have heard some lovely home setups but this just sounded awful.

The evangelical attitude of some of the dealers and the unquestioning devotion of their accolytes never ceases to amuse.

It was a ticket only demo at the Last Drop in Bolton, btw.

I couldn’t agree less with anything you’ve posted. Decent monitors are not harsh, quite the opposite. I’ve done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.

Conversely, the little Pink Triangle/Creek/Epos system in the same room a day later was wonderful.

Same here, I used to work Saturdays in an independent family hifi business, so I used to go to the big London hifi shows, and the Bristol one as well, and I clearly remember sitting down in front of a really nice set-up, Pink Triangle deck, I think Monitor Audio speakers, can’t remember the amp now, and I left after ten minutes, it sounded horrible, really harsh with too much bass, but I could have sat all afternoon in front of a system costing half the price in the next room. Can’t remember what it was, it’s twenty-odd years ago now. 😀

Total garbage.

indeed, the PMC/ATC ranges are the same speaker, wood veneer= home. black finish=studio
and dont forget the BBC Ls3/5A one of the most famous nearfields that was used by many as a hifi speaker (in various exotic wood veneer finishes)

No idea how long it had been set up

My point.

Having said that, when I wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU’s, I auditioned three different makes. Despite the ProAcs sounding far superior in all areas, the salesman insisted on trying to push a pair of NAIM SBL’s on me because they were “musical” and he had them at home.

I thought they sounded like dull disco speakers and couldn’t understand why he was being so enthusiastic…

I wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU’s

Hook, line and sinker 😉

youlot spend far too much money on HiFI – get some Microlab stuff http://www.microlab.cn/main.asp tis brilliantly cheap, but sounds wonderful (to my completely untrained ear) 🙂 I’ve got me some Solo 6C’s which are active and plug straight into my laptop, tablet, phone etc – i was going to plug them into the front room AV unit, but they sit nice an happily in my offce.

Yup, that’s what I mean.
Seen all the tricks – salesmen turning the volume up, enthusiastic foot-tapping, anything to try and persuade you that the evidence of your own ears is wrong.

Put me right off.

A flat frequency response is not the be all and end all for a monitor/speaker – the BBC monitors used to have a dip in their response in the midrange and they were pretty famed for their natural sound and accuracy for reproducing voices. Plus stick it in a room and that flat frequency response is out of the window.

Plus some studio monitors are designed to be mounted up high, and so have an emphasis on the bass to compensate. Put them in a home environment and they will need correction in the bass.

It might be important to have the amplifiers that the speaker designer used to ‘voice’ the speaker – which is an area where actives really score as you are using the same amps.

How about building your own speakers. I built a a set of Transmission line and a sub of here http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/index.htm

They sound very good. Awesome detail. Ivan the owner is passionate about sound quality.

I also may my own cables from crc.

They are being powered with a pair of Rotel mono blocks/pre amp which i won off Ebay.

more speakers here – plus crossover design:

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/index.asp

audio engineers become familiar with not only the charecteristics of individual monitors but also rooms and how the sound they hear will translate to other enviroments/playback equipment and be altered by broadcast processing etc. nothing to do with HiFi

its why they use NS10s, they crap !

spend time and a little thought on room layout to get the most out of your kit
as unless you are “nearfield monitoring” the room is responsible for a very large part of the sound.

Even with nearfield monitoring, the room has a massive impact, and that’s another reason for my distain at the UK hifi industry. The dealers have very little (or no) knowledge of acoustic room treatment. They are happy to sell a stand or interconnects for £2k which make next to no difference, but they have no idea how to treat a room.

but they have no idea how to treat a room.

because their is not much point – most people wouldn’t buy the stuff anyway as they don’t have a dedicated room.

However you can arrange furniture/rugs/curtains sympathetically – maybe the sofa opposite the speakers and then put the armchairs, with substantial cushions, to the outside of the main speakers – soaks up side reflections without looking geeky – and maybe the wife won’t notice…

Just make sure your music doesn’t sound artificial:

😉 Tome to be flamed.

Due to nagging from her indoors, i had to de-clutter the living room. B&W CDM1se’s, Myryad Amp, Atacama speaker stands, Project Debut, QED cable etc all were sent to the gagage or loft.

Bought a Ruark r4i as it was compact with no cables, easy to fit underneath the telly etc. For a small box it is surprisingly capable.
Might be worth going to a local retailer and listening to one. Comes with FM, DAB,DABPlus,CD,USB, I Pod dock and Auxiliary inputs.

I know it is not going to be as good as a seperates set-up, but it now does for me.

lodious – Member

I wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU’s

Hook, line and sinker

I’m not sure why you think that’s particularly meaningful. I used the same method to decide on the NAIM equipment that I used to pick the non-NAIM speakers.

Your comment is irrelevant.

Woppit – you’re going to have to get a sense of humour over this, or you’ll end up like all the other sheep naimees….

Rusty – will look out for it.

FWIW the worst mega system was at a show in Manchester around 10 years ago. Some mahoosive Chord set-up with (I think) enormous Wilson speakers. Never has Rage Against the Machine’s Killing in the Name been so soulless. Best system at that show was a Creek one with some standmounts.

Anyone fancy buying my Audiolab 8000 CDM and DAX

Its still sits pride of place on top of my Hi-Fi stand but I unplugged it a couple of years ago when moving stuff and never bothered plugging it back in.

I just use the rest of the hi-fi with streamed music and blu-rays.

If I was buying a new system I would even consider a CD player