Viewing 40 posts - 121 through 160 (of 317 total)
  • Religion in schools
  • franksinatra
    Full Member

    One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody

    Priest Fail

    failedengineer
    Full Member

    My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she’s got Buddhist leanings and doesn’t really have time for any of the ‘big’ religions. She’s had instances of parents storming into school demanding that she doesn’t show little Billy how to tie a turban “Because we don’t believe in that foreign sh*t” and other such bigoted nonsense.

    MSP
    Full Member

    OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

    It is a seasonal holiday, which Christianity has tried to take as it’s own, there is no evidence for when biblical events took place in a calendar year (or where it does exist it isn’t when the religion observes the date). The church at some point in the past choice those dates because that is when festivals already existed.

    in modern terms it is a bank holiday that coincides with a religious observance.

    Same applies to morality (and did someone claim law?) The church didn’t create rules used by society to all get along, they just tried to claim them, it is nothing but political spin. And it is no surprise that over the last century as the power of the church has wained equality has moved forward despite the fight against it by the church.

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    nealglover
    Free Member

    When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they’ll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

    Are you just going to pick something that isn’t going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she’s got Buddhist leanings and doesn’t really have time for any of the ‘big’ religions.

    I like the cut of her jib

    grum
    Free Member

    One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
    And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.
    What an awful “crackpot idea” to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

    Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

    but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.
    On this point, why not, don’t religious people pay taxes?

    Why does paying taxes mean we should be indoctrinating children? Paedophiles pay taxes too – should we accommodate their wishes?

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Priest Fail

    🙄

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

    Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

    No. Obviously I didn’t.

    grum
    Free Member

    Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

    No. Obviously I didn’t.

    So why did you mention it? You were clearly implying – ‘isn’t it great that he taught them this lovely positive message.’

    My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

    D0NK
    Full Member

    True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily “practicing” though)

    back to the default religion bit? If you’re not practising then shirley you’re not whatever you (or your local church/school) try to identify yourself as. Can you identify yourself as a cyclist is you haven’t ridden a bike since you were a kid?

    nealglover
    Free Member

    So why did you mention it?

    Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was “filling their heads with crackpot ideas”

    I was demonstrating that wasn’t the case.

    If you just read what I wrote, and what I quoted and replied to, it’s not that hard to figure out.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

    Hahah +1

    grum
    Free Member

    Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was “filling their heads with “crackpot ideas”

    So you’ve cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren’t full of crackpot ideas?

    15. Numbers 31:32

    These were the spoils which remained of the plunder taken by the fighting men: 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and as for persons, 32,000 young women who had had no intercourse with a man.

    14. Genesis 16:8And he said “Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?” She answered, “I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.”

    13. Genesis 15:9The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

    12. Deut. 25:11When two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes to drag her husband clear of his opponent, if she puts out her hand and catches hold of the man by his privates, you must cut off her hand and show her no mercy.

    11. Genesis 19:8“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

    10. Deut. 28:53Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you

    9. Judges 3:21And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out.

    8. Mark 14:51A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

    7. Genesis 38:9Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

    6. Ezekiel 16:17You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them.

    5. Kings 2:23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

    4. Deut. 23:1No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.

    3. Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

    2. Exodus 4:24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, “Surely a bloody husband art thou to me”.

    1. Ezekiel 23:19Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

    And yes, I’m cherry-picking too – but at least I can recognise that.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

    Seriously? Who TF says this then? Poster tells of a nice thing that religious person says (and a secular message at that) and you’re trying to twist it into some kind of claim that only religious people claim they can do that? A bit of a stretch now isn’t it?

    grum
    Free Member

    Seriously? Who TF says this then?

    Christians?

    Without morality, there is no basis for reconciliation, and without God, there is no basis for morality.

    http://www.christianity.co.nz/moralit2.htm

    or

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-we-be-good-without-god

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)

    Theres more good is proper Christians though. 😆 The bit of good in everybody else is that bit you have to drag out when converting the them – in these people there is a bit of good morally wholesome christianity waiting to get out.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Seriously? Who TF says this then?

    Well one of the first posts on the thread said this.

    We are a country that has a Christian history and tradition – our laws, contracts, values and morals are all rooted in that history

    It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and “niceness” comes from religion and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

    back to the default religion bit? If you’re not practising then shirley you’re not whatever you (or your local church/school) try to identify yourself as. Can you identify yourself as a cyclist is you haven’t ridden a bike since you were a kid?

    Difference between Christianity as a belief in an old geezer in the sky and christianity as a set of cultural and moral norms that are unconsciously inherited from the social background.

    Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage. So if we do take part in any of that worship stuff Easter baskets and nativity plays will be the default.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage.

    Morally speaking, I’m not. At all.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    So you’ve cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren’t full of crackpot ideas?

    I just gave an example of something that happened to me yesterday.

    I thought this might be helpful because a lot of the talk on this thread about religious education seems to come from people with no current experience of it, talking about what used to happen 30 years ago when they were at school.

    surfer
    Free Member

    What an awful “crackpot idea” to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

    So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

    like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today’s world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

    One could even say that it poisons everything! Being dismissive isnt the same as being naive.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Fairy nuff, some people say it. I’ve don’t recall anybody saying it to me. I need to spend some more time listening out for this kind of stuff I guess. I never hear it day to day. Even growing up and going through a Catholic education system, all my lessons on how to treat others came from my parents and teachers. The ones we paid least attention to were the fire & brimstone priests.

    It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and “niceness” comes from religion

    I just disagree that it’s as pervasive as some are making out…but I accept that this is a subjective view.

    However…

    and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

    This seems somewhat of a stretch again (apologies if you’re exaggerating for effect).

    surfer
    Free Member

    I was demonstrating that wasn’t the case.

    Playing fast and loose with the term “demonstrating” arent you?

    nealglover
    Free Member

    So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

    It wasn’t a “selectively chosen statement” it was the main message of the talk given to the kids (as I said)

    And it was to illustrate exactly what I said when I was asked last time.

    Playing fast and loose with the term “demonstrating” arent you?

    Sorry, I forgot. This is STW.

    Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

    ocrider
    Full Member

    Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

    Video evidence of this exists…
    [video]http://youtu.be/MIaORknS1Dk[/video]

    miketually
    Free Member

    When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they’ll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

    Are you just going to pick something that isn’t going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?[/quote]

    I’m giving an example of something said by (some) religious people which may upset children.

    I’m all for schools visiting various places of worship, and for learning about the beliefs of different faiths. It’s worship of one faith as a part of the normal everyday school day with which I have a problem.

    grum
    Free Member

    Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

    No, it’s just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn’t a substitute for a reasoned argument.

    What an awful “crackpot idea” to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

    So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

    To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.

    Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

    Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
    Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
    Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

    All correct.

    And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

    Very interesting fella.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    No, it’s just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn’t a substitute for a reasoned argument.

    How exactly is it “irrelevant”

    The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

    Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

    My definition of “relevant” must be different to yours somehow ??

    MSP
    Full Member

    Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

    A philosopher could be described as a professional thinker, maybe many branches of science could be described as professional thinkers, but a theologian is a professional believer.

    Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

    Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

    grum
    Free Member

    How exactly is it “irrelevant”

    The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

    Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

    My definition of “relevant” must be different to yours somehow ??

    You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are ‘full of crackpot ideas’ – the fact that you had an anecdote about some positive stuff said by one religious person doesn’t alter the fact that religions are full of crackpot ideas, as I demonstrated with quotes from the bible.

    So yes, it’s irrelevant – because as far as I’m aware no-one was arguing that every single thing about religion is wrong/stupid. You’re moving the goalposts now (as opposed to earlier which was more of a straw man).

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

    Totally agree.

    As it happens, the man in question fits the bill in both cases anyway 😉

    nealglover
    Free Member

    You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are ‘full of crackpot ideas’

    What I was actually doing, was using it to demonstrate that taking kids to be educated about other religions isn’t about trying to get them to believe in that religion.

    It’s about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

    And that those differences are ok.

    (I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

    grum
    Free Member

    Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying ‘religions are full of crackpot ideas’ by saying ‘no they’re not, look what this guy said yesterday’.

    You’re massively shifting the goalposts now.

    It’s about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

    And that those differences are ok.

    (I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

    That sounds great and I’m all for educating people about religion as a cultural/historical thing – but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic – not confusing anecdote with evidence.

    Educating people about different religions isn’t the same as indoctrinating them into a particular religion – I thought that would be fairly obvious.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying ‘religions are full of crackpot ideas’ by saying ‘no they’re not, look what this guy said yesterday’

    No i wasn’t.

    I was replying to…..

    I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

    Which was about kids going to different places of worship and learning about them.

    grum
    Free Member

    nealglover
    Free Member

    but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic – not confusing anecdote with evidence.

    My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any “evidence” I’ve seen posted in this thread.

    By the way, I’m not religious in any way.
    I’m not a parent trying to get kids into a “good school”
    Or a teacher with anything to prove.

    I’m just a “bystander” if you like.

    (With a theology A Level 😉 )

    surfer
    Free Member

    To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
    Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
    Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

    All correct.

    And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

    Very interesting fella.

    Surely his lifelong study of fairy stories trumps all of his other qualifications? in fact why bring it up?
    I suppose it shows he didnt waste all of his study time

    grum
    Free Member

    My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any “evidence” I’ve seen posted in this thread.

    By the way, I’m not religious in any way.
    I’m not a parent trying to get kids into a “good school”
    Or a teacher with anything to prove.

    I’m just a “bystander” if you like.

    (With a theology A Level )

    Why are you being coy about what your actual experience/involvement is? Why do you go on school trips if you’re not a teacher or even a parent? 😕

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