Referendum on English Independence?

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  • Referendum on English Independence?
  • zokes
    Member

    Why is it a joke?
    The reasons for Scottish independence are valid for England.

    This. I’ve always wondered why Scottish / Welsh nationalism is seen as a good thing and that their strong national identities should be admired, whereas the moment the idea of an independent England gets mooted (or even a wish for greater recognition of England as a defined entity within the UK), it’s apparently jingoistic and myopic.

    c/f Saint David’s / Andrew’s Day vs. Saint George’s Day. Two are seen as days for patriotic pride, one is seen as shame for jingoistic middle England.

    athgray
    Member

    There has been plenty of jingoistic views expressed both on the forum and in the press. Can seem quite unsavoury at times.

    zokes
    Member

    There has been plenty of jingoistic views expressed both on the forum and in the press. Can seem quite unsavoury at times.

    Yes, but this cuts both ways. Fishface blathering on about celtic tigers is just as jingoistic as camoron yelling “better together”.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    If Scots want Scotland to separate from England its ‘Forward looking and in charge of our own destiny’ if English people want to separate from Scotland its ‘jingoistic arrogance’.
    The double standards are really making me want Scotland to leave so we can all get on with our own stuff.

    athgray
    Member

    So which is it muddy? You appear to feel the same as Scottish nationalists.

    zokes
    Member

    So which is it

    Jingoistic and myopic. We’re all human beings. WGAS about what the name is for the bit of rock you happen to inhabit. It’s just a political construct with no worthwhile meaning, ultimately.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    I can see why Scots would want to be independent and i find it hard to disagree that Scotland should have the chance, why not?
    I also think Independence for Scotland will be good for England/Wales as it will shake up the political landscape one hell of a lot, the Left will need to reconnect with their core vote and the Tories may become even more a minority party than they are now.
    Scots can finally stop blaming the English for all their ills (real or imagined) and the English can give up feeling like they are being hated (again, real or imagined)
    I think it will be good for both parties so I’m firmly in favour of Scotland leaving the Union.

    athgray
    Member

    I take your point muddy, however I take the opposite view. I think we all benefit being together. Remember that as things stand the independence view in Scotland is in the minority. Most people go about their business in Scotland quietly but broadly supportive of union. Myself aside the Yes camp is certainly the shoutiest so that is what may be seen by the rUK.

    I am sometimes amazed that in Scotland we have got to the position of being fairly successful on the whole despite over 300 years of apparent subjugation.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    An unforseen (or maybe not) byproduct of the Scots Independence campaign has been a rise in English Nationalism, people i speak to are pretty fed up of the heaping of blame and the ‘oppressor’ tag to be frank. That to me is just a way of garnering votes from a section of the Scots electorate who think Braveheart was a documentary, i believe most Scots are far more informed than that. However, i have come to the conclusion that we are better off apart.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    muddydwarf – Member
    An unforseen (or maybe not) byproduct of the Scots Independence campaign has been a rise in English Nationalism, people i speak to are pretty fed up of the heaping of blame and the ‘oppressor’ tag to be frank. That to me is just a way of garnering votes from a section of the Scots electorate who think Braveheart was a documentary, i believe most Scots are far more informed than that.

    I don’t understand why an English person being proud of being English is a bad thing. England is a country with a significant and great history, and this should be celebrated.

    The Braveheart allusion is not relevant to the discussion. I doubt many of the current young generation have seen it (neither my 24 yr old or my 19 yr have). It’s just a slur used by the No campaign to try to make the independence supporters look mindless, and probably achieves the opposite result to that intended.

    An independent England would be a good thing if you could get rid of the layer of privilege and unelected at the top of your government.

    konabunny
    Member

    An unforseen (or maybe not) byproduct of the Scots Independence campaign has been a rise in English Nationalism,

    Aww, rubbish. English nationalism has been on an upswing since the mid 1990s, and the last 12 years of anti-Muslim frothing is far more important to English people than Scottish independence – an issue of which normal English people were barely aware.

    winston_dog
    Member

    Why is English Nationlism “anti-Muslim frothing”?

    In 1990’s there was a definite attempt to claim the St Georges Cross back from the right wing arseholes. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s and the only people who seemed to display the flag of my Country were right wing nutters. It had a very negative image.

    When the left wing hand wringers associate English Nationalism with racism, then all that does is actually help the likes of the BNP.

    wrecker
    Member

    anti-Muslim frothing is far more important to English people than Scottish independence

    Utter bollocks. Scottish independence is showing us that the status quo can be changed. As for the anti Muslim/immigrant stuffs IMHO, all are welcome as long as they pay tax.

    athgray
    Member

    Scotland is a bastion of religious and racial tolerance? Don’t make me laugh. A region/country such as Scoland with a relatively low level of ethnic diversity compared to say England should not be claiming any sort of moral highground with regards to it’s stance on Islam. I know a few Scottish nationalist that hate London, however by their own admission have never been. (I don’t know where they get that idea from). For all it’s faults London is one of the most diverse and vibrant cities I have visited. A million miles from the image portrayed by the SNP.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    I was referring to the point that otherwise middle of the road English folk, those who aren’t normally ‘anti Muslim mouth frothers’ are getting agitated and becoming more Nationalist due to the increased media interest in what is to be fair a very important moment in UK history.
    In my recent experience people are asking why cant we be separated from Scotland for the benefit of both Nations.
    I was slightly pro Union when this all started, now I’ve come to the conclusion it will be better for England and Wales if Scotland goes, i suspect it will be better for Scotland as well but there are lots of counter claims about that

    I hope Scotland votes yes next year.

    codybrennan
    Member

    I’m not one to get involved in these things, and I’m ambivalent about Scottish Independence: but about 50% of the posts on this thread neatly sum up the attitude towards Scots that inspires the ‘Yes’ voters I know.

    zokes
    Member

    I’m not one to get involved in these things, and I’m ambivalent about Scottish Independence: but about 50% of the posts on this thread neatly sum up the attitude towards Scots that inspires the ‘Yes’ voters I know.

    And equally, were there a referendum on English independence, I’m sure a large number of comments on the Scottish independence thread would encourage yes voters in that hypothetical referendum also.

    codybrennan
    Member

    And equally, were there a referendum on English independence, I’m sure a large number of comments on the Scottish independence thread would encourage yes voters in that hypothetical referendum also.

    Indisputably.

    codybrennan
    Member

    it will be better for England and Wales if Scotland goes

    If Scotland goes, Wales will be next. No doubt about it.

    winston_dog
    Member

    Wales will be next.

    Sorry Cody but that just would never work. Scotland has the O&G and also some major financial services, as well other industries, especially in the Central belt.

    Wales just doesn’t have enough to be a viable independent.

    Face it, your stuck with us. 🙂

    MrSmith
    Member

    If Scotland goes, Wales will be next. No doubt about it.

    Really? I think the welsh are pretty smart and know which side their bread is buttered (and more importantly who is paying for the butter).

    codybrennan
    Member

    Really? I think the welsh are pretty smart and know which side their bread is buttered (and more importantly who is paying for the butter).

    All the Welshmen reading this thread just sat up and looked around 🙂

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    All the Welshmen reading this thread just sat up and looked around

    Expects half a dozen posts in welsh till they think we can’t hear them

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    If Wales wanted Independence i would support it – it would be the choice of the Welsh after all.

    zokes
    Member

    Plenty of the Welsh do want independence. Well, independence from England, whilst having huge dependence on EU subsidy.

    konabunny
    Member

    Why is English Nationlism “anti-Muslim frothing”?

    I didn’t say it was, but I’ll make what I said more explicit as rereading it I agree it was ambiguous. I meant:

    Aww, rubbish. English nationalism has been on an upswing since the mid 1990s, and the last 12 years of anti-Muslim frothing is far more important to English people’s views on English nationalism than Scottish independence – an issue of which normal English people were barely aware.

    In other words, Osama bin Laden and Nick Griffin have been far more influential in the present ebb of interest in English nationalism than Alex Salmond, and it’s an uptick that dates from the period in which the independence movement was weak. Pinning English nationalism on the Scots is just absurd.

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