So last Monday the three members of my team got called in and told that one of us was to be made redundant.

Our manager started in April and has had hardly any contact with us (we work on customer sites and travel extensively) as he has focussed on the other part of his role.

He is now scoring us during the selection process and has made a pretty poor job of things. I have been marked down for not attending meetings which is not true. One of my colleagues did not attend but he has solid reasons for not doing so. A clear case of the manager being confused as to which of us did what. I have also been marked down for negative feedback from colleagues of which I had not been informed about before the selection meeting> When I asked to see the details of this feedback I was told it could not be shared.

There are a few other dubious claims in the scoring process and I have strong evidence to support my position that the managers claims are incorrect.

I detailed all this in my response to the scoring but this feedback is going to be reviewed by the same manager which seems completely unfair (he is acting as both accuser and judge).

I have complained to HR but have been told that they will investigate my claims but the redundancy process will not be halted and someone will be dismissed by the end of the week.

I have told HR that if I do not receive more details on how they are progressing my complaint bu close of business tomorrow I will raise a formal grievance.

My question is should I be talking to an employment lawyer and, if so, where can I find a reputable lawyer and what type of service should I request?

I have found various lawyers on the Internet who offer free initial consultations but am dubious about finding a decent lawyer in this way.

I live in Gloucestershire if anyone has any recommendations.

Thanks in advance.

If you win your case do you still want to work there considering that the tension will remain.

My view is that the moment they want to get rid of you it is time to move on by focusing all your energy on finding something new.

If the company is not doing well then if you escape this round you will not escape the next.

Obviously, if it is for financial reasons to hang on then hang on as long as possible but find another job quick.

Keep putting everything down in writing to both your manager and hr dept.
Might be with engaging with a solicitor now, they may be able to steer your path better for you. I.e. they know employment law better than you.
Go for the biggest firm in town.

Your union is the first step

How long have you been working there?

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1611

it looks like they have already broken the law

“Consultation should begin in good time and must begin at least:

30 days before the first dismissal takes effect, if 20 to 99 employees are to be made redundant at one establishment over a period of 90 days or less
45 days before the first dismissal takes effect, if 100 or more employees are to be made redundant at one establishment over a period of 90 days or less”

Personally I’d probably wait until they make a decision then challenge it as unfair dismissal for which you will probably end up with a compromise deal and a pig payoff.

I think it would be foolish to challenge the process until it has reached a conclusion, but having seen this a few times to other people previously, i think I’d be using this time to line up another opportunity and move on.

Sorry to read about this it must be very stressful. As said above I would not want to work in an organisation that behaves like that so I would concentrate on finding something else.

Then if the process was successfully challenged and you get rewarded it’s a win win. Even if you survive the first cull I suspect you may be next.

Don’t bank on a big payoff, unfair dismissal isn’t a big payer.

Honest advice, suck it up and move on, employer obviuosly doesn’t want you so you have no role. If you do want to tackle the isues as the others have said wait until you’ve been dismissed, there should be an appeal process in the redundancy. You can’t short cut or abuse the process either.

It’s not a good situation but it happens, there’s loads of rules around redundancy but they don’t really help an employee.

Hi Cletus

You’re actually looking at this in exactly the right way, which is to srutinise the process rather than to react in an emotional way.

My wife went through something similar when she tried to return from mat leave. They obviously just wanted her out and reverse engineered a scoring system that was so flawed and random it was embarrassing. It ended up costing them a 6 figure sum. We took them to tribunal because they’d insulted her intelligence, had they just asked for an honest word and offered a modest pay out they’d have been fine.

You should be aware that since then tribunal fees have massively increased (as the current Government doesn’t really believe in justice for the likes of you and I). That’s pushed the balance in favour of employers who know a lot of people that threaten proceedings can’t afford to go through with it and so they are less desperate to settle these days.

I can recommend a great employment lawyer who will have a chat with you and honestly give you a feel for the strength of your case. My email is in my profile.

Most of all I’m sorry you’re going through this – it’s sh1t.

Check your house insurance, you may have legal cover, i used mine for a solicitor to consult on a tribunal , in the end i moved on and didn’t pursue

The bosses know who they want to shift. The process is just about making it fit / paper trail. Just start looking know and move on. By all means challenge it if you want, but consider your line of work – is it a tight scene where all the local bosses knows each other, or are you in a more anonymous set up?

My view is that the moment they want to get rid of you it is time to move on by focusing all your energy on finding something new.

This.

From both sides of the coin, if you are in the crosshairs, you are going regardless, maybe not this time round, but the likely subsequent toxic environment isn’t going to be any fun.

If it were me i’d be looking to extract as much as I can, and go. Not the best time to be looking 4 weeks before Christmas but get out there & see what is about.

Just be aware that if you go down the home insurance cover route you are still not guaranteed that a legal firm will represent you as it is still the insurance company paying for the services and they need to ensure that they recover their costs.

From experience your insurance company will only provide the legal cover if they feel you have a reasonable chance of winning. That is 50% or greater.

The case that I was involved with was marked at 49% chance of success so legal cover stopped at that point. It was always going to be a 50/50 case based on who said what at what time so very much down to a decision on the day and maybe who represented themselves the best.

However it is a good opportunity to get some advice and I would strongly recommend that you speak to a professional at the earliest opportunity. Sometimes just the threat of legal action will allow you some better negotiating with your employer.

You can put a subject access request in to see the feedback about you.

you will probably end up with a compromise deal and a pig payoff.

Bringing home the bacon!

Thank you for the responses everyone. I am genuinely touched that strangers can take the time to offer constructive advice.

I am in a state of disbelief at how the process is progressing. I would have expected that the mistakes and incompetence displayed by my manager to have been questioned by HR but they have made it clear that the process will move forward and that by the end of the week someone will be selected for redundancy. This person will not actually be dismissed until the 30 day consultancy period is up and there will be token efforts to discuss alternate roles etc.

I am not sure that it is me that is being targeted but have suspicions that this is the case.. I am the oldest, most highly qualified and experienced member of the team and also (I am pretty certain) the highest paid. Selection critera such as experience, qualifications and length of service on which I would score highly have not been included in the scoring process.

The other two team members (who I consider close friends) are also dissatisfied with the process.

I am not a member of a union. I have spoken to ACAS and CAB and had some useful general advice from them but they were unable to comment on the specifics of the case. The Law Society web site had some useful content. I would be reluctant to go down the tribunal route and agree that I need to plot my exit. I have been with the company nine years so it is a bit scary but I guess having a payout would cushion the blow.

I will check my home insurance for legal cover – thanks for that suggestion. curto80 thanks for your post. I will pm you for more information later.

Stating the obvious, but don’t expect HR to be on your side – they are there to represent the companies interests, not the employees. I was in a similar state of disbelief when HR upheld a managers decision to refuse to allow me time to attend (very necessary) hospital appointments.

It happened to me. About twelve years ago, I went to my citizens advice beaureu. They put me in touch with a lawyer who got me a 10k settlement- my former employer didn’t want to risk a tribunal.The initial stages were f.o.c and then no win no fee.

Not my area but I have practical experience as an employee, document everything keep copies of everything off site , keep a diary recording all relevant conversations and meetings , for me a Dictaphone was a boon as it is easier to speak and cover everything than write up memories.
I would consult a solicitor now you can do this on the quiet without notifying your employer , they can focus your attention and give a road map of what is to come . The firms that I know are northern based but national in practice, Thompson’s and Morish and co . they may help or have a local recommendation.

My view is that the moment they want to get rid of you it is time to move on by focusing all your energy on finding something new. [/I]

I really if ever agree with chewkw, but have done today 🙂

I’ve been made redundant a number of times, all there is to focus on now is getting the best possible deal for yourself (research what you are due plus the various legal/tax implications).

Play by the rules, and where they don’t follow the rules there’s “profit” in it for you. And I’ve never bothered with Legal, just see that as a cost which means (possibly) less for me.

I had a similar thing the last time I was made redundant; a scoring system that was basically nonsense. Certain scores that just didn’t make any sense & when questioned about it there was lots of ummmming & aaaahing.
The questions as to why none of my ‘poor performance’ had been bought up in any previous appraisals & why I had always received the maximum annual pay rise (which was based on a sliding scale of performance) were met with more embarrassed looks between HR & my manager with more umming and aaaahing.

To be honest, I should have fought harder for a better payout but I wasn’t really sure how to approach it.

In your situation, I would definitely aim to leave whatever the outcome of this redundancy consultation & if it was me that was going I would be doing my upmost to get the highest payout I could.

I also went through this process over a Xmas period it is a shit time , I chose not to tell my wife till we were driving home after the festivals she had been aware something was up and life would have been better for both of us if I had shared my worked.
I kept my job the two made redundant successfully claimed compensation due yo the flawed procedure.

You can put a subject access request in to see the feedback about you.

You might be disappointed. If the content of the feedback would personally identify the colleague who gave the feedback then they can’t disclose it without that person’s consent, as otherwise they would be breaching their rights under the DPA. And that’s not simply resolved by removing the name from the top – in many cases, particularly a small team, the person would be identifiable from the content – e.g. if the feedback relates to your conduct in a particular meeting, and only one of your colleagues was present, then the content identifies them and they would therefore have to give their consent for it to be disclosed.

The company are making an utter horlicks of the process so if it does go down as you think it would automatically be an unfair dismissal with no defence possible by the company. Let them make an utter mess of the process, whoever is selected then tells them its an obvious unfair dismissal but I will go quietly if you make it worth my while. I’d be asking for at least a years salary and settle for half that

You might be surprised what can happen. One outfit I worked for wanted me out. They made such a mess of the process I ended up on full pay at home for 7 months then a £7000 payoff under a compromise agreement. I was actually entitled to a months notice and £400.

Knowing your stuff on this or getting in someone who does usually means you can run rings round HR – thats what me and t’missus did.

American based company?

Obviously they as a company or person are engineering your leverage out of the comapny for what ever reason, comapnies have lots of powwer and thanks to this lot in power workers rights have been seriously erroded, Just perhaps the site you work at no longer need the services of your employer.

good advice here re: checking your home insurance.

One thing you need to be aware of is that HR are of absolutely no use to you whatsoever. They are known as Human Remains for good reason. They are only there to work for the company – not the employee. You must always remember this.

Write everything down, everything. They hate it. And it’s great to have a record of the conversation so you can go back over it.

I’ve been made redundant twice. Both times as it turned out because upper management had failed and the compannies were going belly up – but they never tell you that…

The first time was scary. But it turned out to be a really good thing.

The second time I knew exactly what was going on and I went in with a ‘don’tgive2shits’ attitude. I wrote everything down, listened to the crap they spouted and then after the meetings looked over everything and ripped it apart. It was surprisingly easy.

In the end I told them how they could easily resolve the situation, they gave me a pay-off and I went and found another job.

Your boss is a knob, he doesn’t care about anyone but himself. HR are total knobs.
Get the max payout you can and find something better.

Onwards and Upwards.

🙂

American based company?

Yes 😀

I asked if I could record the meeting and was told no. Apparently covert recording evidence can be used at a tribunal.

Legal Q&A: Recording disciplinary and grievance meetings

I do not really care any more. I really wish I had ordered a League of Gentlemen “Dole Scum” t-shirt to wear during the final meeting (tomorrow at 10). Will get one for my leaving drinks.

I may have had a few beers this evening 😀

Having had the job of having to run redundancy consultation exercises more than once for my employer, I’d agree with lots of what’s been said here already. Definitely write everything down. Ask as many awkward questions as you see fit such as the reasons for the specific selection criteria.

They should also have been clear from the outset as to the reasons for consultation. It should be broadly for one of three reasons; closure of the business, closure of a site or reduced or diminished work of a particular kind. I’m assuming it’s the last one in your case but they need to confirm. If it is this, ask for evidence as to exactly what work has reduced or changed, is it reduced sales, or introduction of new technology? It might be that work is being subcontracted, in which case TUPE might apply.

The point too on consultation lasting a minimum of 30 days is exactly that; they need to consult for that duration. They can’t serve notice of redundancy until after that period ends. You are well within your rights to suggest all manner of options to mitigate redundancy too during that time, after all that should be their primary focus if they are a good employer. I encourage people being consulted to suggest job shares, changes to other company costs (people and estates are generally the two most expensive things) such as reduced travel, ban on overnight stays unless approved by a director, and so on. It definitely helps to know how much the company is trying to save in cash terms too as you can probably quite easily identify inefficient spend elsewhere which could go some way to contributing toward this cost.

If none of this works then I’d still say you’ve a good case to negotiate a comp agreement based on flawed process if nothing else, this is when having everything written down goes a long way.

b r – Member

My view is that the moment they want to get rid of you it is time to move on by focusing all your energy on finding something new.

I really if ever agree with chewkw, but have done today [/quote] 😛

For me being made redundant was a way of life during the far east economy crisis. Places where I worked became dog eat dog world where co-workers tried to cling on to whatever they could. It was very hard at times. Couldn’t sleep for two years. Never fully recovered from full time job since … never had one since …

One thing I have learned is to travel light.

I knew it would be an american company – they do not have the same level of worker protection in the states we do here let alone the level they have in mainland europe so senior folk tend not to understand how employment law works

Write everything down as said and then use this to pull the process apart showing how its unfair dismissal and wait for the payoff offer

Definitely speak to ACAS. They really are very helpful and can offer good guidance for free.

A word of advice about taking your employer on. Think very carefully about it before you do if it comes to that. I was in a nailed on unfair dismissal situation a few years ago. Turned up on the Friday and got ‘made redundant’ on the spot. There was questions over disability discrimination and all sorts. As I say it was as nailed on a case as you can get.

I went the legal route and really wish I hadn’t now. I was angry and wanted to take the bastard on but it nearly destroyed me physically emotionally and financially. I came out with a bit but after not getting a job because of being focused on the ‘fight’, lawyers fees etc and then factoring in the cost to my health it really wasn’t worth it.

It all turned very very nasty when I could and should have just walked away with the small redundancy payment and got in with my life.

Your emotions are entirely understandable but don’t let them cloud your judgement. Legal action may be the best way forward but perhaps it would be note constructive to just negotiate the best severance package you can.

Start with ACAS and take it from there.

I should also add that I was made redundant again a few years later and I’m convinced the selection process was entirely rigged so that I was the fall guy.

I didn’t even ask to see the criteria-I knew they wanted me gone and would manage me out of the business one way or the other. Admittedly the severance package was generous but I may have got more if I had challenged it.

This time round though I took the money and ran.

It took me a year to get back into the insurance industry but I’m now in the position I’ve been working towards for the last 14 years and working for a company where the management has belief in me as opposed to hatred for me so it’s all worked out in the end.

My wife went through the same earlier this year, performance feedback she had never received brought up in consultation etc, when she had been an outstanding performer. She was too senior to be collectively represented by the union, but she took them anyway. Here is what we learnt

– insist on a independent note taker in each consultation meeting, if that isn’t provided simply refuse to go
– take your own rep also
– ask for a photo copy of the notes before the meeting is closed
– this will help you have the evidence for the parts of the process that are not followed
– look at what process they should have followed and document every variance
– raise grievance and appeal redundancy
– be fairly explicit in the final meetings where they haven’t followed process and that you want to be fairly compensated for this.
– if your company then terminate your employment with the legal minimum, or your companies customary package it’s then time to go to acas, at this point you might want a lawyer, but we and others found it unnecessary, as soon as a tribunal is on the horizon a cheque book is opened

Eta, there is also value in just focusing on the future IMHO, not the fight, which you will loose, appart from maybe getting a bit more cash. I am being made redundant in December, as soon as I got wind that the process was in swing I focused on my post exit strategy, by the time I got my individual consultation letter I had secured another job. Now I can just sit in the consultation meetings nodding and wait for the cheque 🙂

Be very careful what you actually want, and the consequences.

This time last year I was being messed around at work, and handed in my notice. The union got involved, mentioned sexual discrimination and constructive dismissal, and my employer back tracked and I withdrew my notice.

With hindsight, I should have walked, found something else and chanced my arm via the union. Really messed my head up.

Went through this 3 years ago – utterly incompetent manager with matching boss. They wanted me out and the process was built to do just that.

Points I’d make:
Be dispassionate.
Don’t trust HR.
Be careful talking to colleagues.
Get proper legal advice. The free stuff was poor – just pay for an hour from a local specialist. I didn’t do this and regret it.
IIRC there are a few ways out. I probably should have gone constructive unfair dismissal which is resigning and tribunal. In the end I took a settlement agreement which was quite good and is more of a negotiation.
If you think it will serve, get a Data Protection Act disclosure from the company (5 quid to see what they have).
If you’re gonna go, you’re gonna go. So get busy looking for new world ™ but keep it very quiet as part of SA’s is that you can’t have a job lined up…
HTH

IIRC OP. Length of service is not useable as a criteria in scoring – otherwise you enter the last in first out scenario which is I believe illegal.

Length of service is not useable as a criteria in scoring – otherwise you enter the last in first out scenario which is I believe illegal.

Not so clear cut – straight up LIFO is likely to be automatically unfair. Length of service as one criteria, provided there is an objective justification and safeguards are in place, can be acceptable.

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4242

Speak to my other half, she is a solicitor and she specialises in employment law – my email is on my profile if you are interested drop me a line & i’ll give you her details

Update!

I found out on Thursday that I was the lucky one selected for redundancy. I was awarded four more points taking my score to 57 which was below my same grade colleague who scored 60 and a lower grade colleague who scored 62.5.

I know that I should not know these scores but we agreed to share them before the outcome was announced.

The first guy outscored me mainly because he did a lot of international travel last year. This was effectively recognised twice – the score for “Flexibility” and the fact that he got a higher rating in his 2015 review because he traveled a lot.

The more junior guy was awarded a 50% multiplier on some of the scores because “the level expected of him was lower”. Without this he would have been some way behind me.

I did manage to successfully challenge some of the more ridiculous things mentioned at the first meeting including the “bad feedback” that had never previously been raised and the statement that I refused to attend a meeting three times. When I pushed my manager to admit that he had confused me with my senior peer all he would say was “No comment” 😯

So I am out in December. I have a meeting this coming week to review alternative positions, make suggestions to avoid redundancy and find ot how much cash they are going to offer me.

I am pretty p*ssed because I think that this process was designed to target me (it is the higher earners that have been selected across other departments). My senior colleague has a six month stint booked in with a major customer so he was never going to go. The more junior guy is paid quite a bit less so not such a cost saving if he went.

The more junior guy only joined our team in March. He was in another team doing a related role which he was getting frustrated with and the company wanted to retain him and so he joined us. At the point he joined we were busy but then work dropped away. I had no visibility of the pipeline and actually gave really good feedback on the guy when asked if he would be a good addition to the team. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

I am not really sure what to do now. I think the manager that ran the process (and managed the team so poorly) has had his card marked and cannot see the company improving much so I am trying to be positive about leaving.

I am going to have to accept a big drop in pay (my skills were hot nine years ago when I joined) but there seems to be some interesting jobs/contracts about.

Is it worth paying for some advice from a solicitor? From doing some reading I would have to prove that the process was unfair and the obvious way of doing this would be to challenge the 50% multiplier the more junior guy was awarded.

Can anyone who has managed to read this far and has relevant experience advise on whether there would be any grounds for action.

A rough idea of how much a decent lawyer would cost for some initial advice would be useful too.

I will PM the two people who offered to put me in touch with lawyers after the next meeting.

Thanks

Sorry to hear that, from your post it seems that you wanted to stay there.

I’d probably look at it differently though and concerntrate on getting as much as you can out of redundancy payments and move on.

Goodluck with whatever you decide.