As mentioned above – is this now about the uci and their inaction?

Your right redemption and forgiveness is such a terrible thing. Should we burn him , hang him or death by a thousand cuts?

Maybe he should do what everyones suggesting LA does?
Pay back/donate the money that he earned? Has he been stripped of all of his wins? What has anyone had from him apart from an apology?

Being critical of LA and supporting Millar is hypocritical. Transparent patriotism.
He also did not immediately admit doping once caught. Oh no. It took him a while to cough up after a period of denial.

You can’t see any difference?

Yes there are others who have behaved much worse eg LA.

But as a role model, having someone do well out of doping and welcomed with open arms onto their countries Olympic Team, is not a good advert for riding clean. If the sport really wants to be clean it would really start afresh and cut all ties with all past dopers and anyone associated eg team doctors.

If a few genuinely reformed riders get cut adrift as part of the clean break, it’s a price worth paying for a clean sport.

However, we all know it will just carry on as before and never be clean, so it’s all a bit academic.

Being critical of LA and supporting Millar is hypocritical. Transparent patriotism.

Yep, and that actually annoys me way more than doping in cycling (no idea why).

DM immediately admitted doping and confessed the full extent of it.

why didn’t he admit it – say – a month before they found evidence?

FF,

I don’t think anyone has said DM is a role model.
But there is nothing unreasonable/hypocritical about having respect for the way he has conducted himself since he was caught.
He’s almost unique in that regard.

Presuming he’s clean now, of course?

[quotejota180 – Member
Yeah and he was part of the problem too. He’s now on various anti-doping boards trying find solutions. Don’t understand your point really.
And do you know for sure he isn’t still part of the problem?

If the the most tested athlete, in the most tested sport has been pretty much proven to be the circus master in all this, who could have any confidence in any of them or what they say?[/quote]

“The most tested athlete” is one of Lance’s own stories. Someone on here posted up the full USDA test records and Lance wasn’t even the most tested athlete with “Armstrong” as his surname, let alone most tested athlete overall!

If rabo think drugs are a problem they could be the beacon that runs a clean team that organises public independent regular testing of it’s team members to show it’s commitment. Looks like a handy get-out clause for them to save a few quid. Fair play to keeping the Juniors on though.

Being critical of LA and supporting Millar is hypocritical. Transparent patriotism

You think the only difference between Millar and LA is their nationality 😯 🙄
It is obvious why folk respond differently- its because they have acted differently once it was out in the open. You may feel it is not correct, that they are both equally cheats , that they are hypocrites or anything else but to suggest it is nationality is barrel scrappingly poor.
I would be embarrassed to post that in public tbh its beyond spin and into stupidity.

Yep, and that actually annoys me way more than doping in cycling (no idea why).

Its an interesting one – I’m not sure if one annoys me more or less than the other, or if I’m actually that bothered about Armstrong finally being proved to be a cheat (which, lets be fair we all suspected anyway). What’s happening now is that the gutter press has got hold of the story and has blown it out of all proportion. See the Sun on Wednesday for a massive picture of Armstrong with ‘Cheat’ and ‘Liar’ printed in big letters, with the story going on to slam him and the professional cycling world, by a journo that knows nothing about cycling. This is massively damaging to cycling, possibly from which it might never recover. Such a shame after a good year in the UK with Wiggo et al doing so well

This whole Armstrong thing is getting a bit out of control. Doping was and probably still is a large part of professional cycling. Dopers are always one step ahead of the testers so if you want to do it (and with the sums of cash involved you can see why) then you can. The bloke tested positive during a period when everyone was testing positive. He won 7 tours ahead of people who have either been banned, or are now dead – so is it really a big surprise?

I admire Millar for what he’s done, but as an individual I don’t like him – he seems a bit whingy. However, from reading his book, he never tested positive but vials were found in his house at which point he fully owned up. More than Bertie did, and more than Lance has managed.

What really grips my sh1t are people like Landis. Someone who cheated, lied about cheating, set up a fund for people to donate to for supporting his USDA fight and then to finally admit he had doped is disgusting. The bloke should be put in prison…

Fact is, the Tour this year was dull, and the Vuelta was pretty exciting. Team Sky look to be blatantly clean, where as Bertie and crew are blatantly not. I know which one made for better viewing…

Also shows Sky’s ‘no past or present doping ethos’ as the only way forward.

It’s actually very dangerous. The choice for someone who has been involved in doping but not caught on Team Sky or who wants to join Team Sky is to

a) tell the truth – get fired or never hired
b) lie and never get found out – keep earning
c) lie and get found out – earn for a bit then get fired

I can’t believe anyone will go for option A and so what you end up with is a continuation of the culture of silence, only blown apart when someone starts to topple the house of cards. Neither Hamilton nor Landis would have confessed had they not been caught at it (and even then they took forever) so we’d never have the USADA report.

Also, given Julich is almost certainly “Rider 4” in the Hincapie statement, Yates is a mate of motoman/Lance/Johan and rode and DS’d for Lance/Johan and Rogers has admitted to working with Ferrari, why haven’t all three been fired yet?

He also did not immediately admit doping once caught. Oh no. It took him a while to cough up after a period of denial.

Eh? He was arrested with the empty syringes in his flat and confessed within 48 hours to everything. Are you sure you’re thinking of David Millar?

You think the only difference between Millar and LA is their nationality
It is obvious why folk respond differently- its because they have acted differently once it was out in the open. You may feel it is not correct, that they are both equally cheats , that they are hypocrites or anything else but to suggest it is nationality is barrel scrappingly poor.
I would be embarrassed to post that in public tbh its beyond spin and into stupidity.

LOL. Says the scotsman.
Why is LA so vilified right now? It’s because he took drugs. He cheated. It’s not because he’s an asshole or whatever. It’s because he let people down by cheating. The opinion on here may be a little different, particularly where people are trying not to look hypocritical as they actually don’t mind cheats as long as they’ve said sorry. It’s pathetic.
In fact, I’d be a little embarrassed to be exposed so comprehensively as an utter and outright hypocrite.

Edit; there’s claims that Millar encouraged his team mates to dope (as LA is claimed to have), he “eventually” admitted and blamed it all on stress and then went to arbitration to try and reduce his ban. Doesn’t seem like a saint to me.

footflaps – Member

i think Millar realises his own cheating/doping was part of the doping/cheating problem too

He still races though! Think about the message:

Lie and cheat to make money. If you get caught, a two year slap on the wrist. Apologise profusely, write an autobiography about how wrong you were (making loads of cash), come back a hero and get to ride on your countries Olympic team!

Basically cheating pays and handsomely, if you’re DM.

Hardly an advert for clean riding is it?

Seems to have worked for Contador so far.

Millar is a complex situation. He’s doing more good for the sport right now than if he’d walked away but you can’t escape the fact that he chose to dope. His book peddles the same old “I could dope or I could quit because I couldn’t compete” sort of line that you get from everyone else. I’m sure it’s true for the most part, but those riders all contributed to the culture, not in the same way that Lance did (i.e. driving the culture forward) but certainly added to it.

Millar has a point. The team runs a systematic doping programme (allegedly), eventually becomes a clean team and then because of a report into doping in the era they doped, the majority owner and title sponsor pulls out. Hypocrites.

So everyone thinks it’s right that Trek/Oakley/Nike withdraw their association/sponsorship with LA now (presumably as a retired cyclist he doesn’t need to dope…) but Rabobank is a bad idea?

Still you have to look at Rabo, them being a bank and all. Thier margins have been cut so they’re looking to save some money.. sponsorship is the biggest draw off the bottom line, simple economics IMO.

Don’t think it’s economics, more the association with a sport many regard as full of cheats.

Regarding DM’s book – having very recently read it and despite his assertion that he was clean when caught, I got the distinctly uneasy feeling (as others appear to) that it was all rather (in)convenient timing.

I also don’t agree with DM’s pop at Rabobank. Is he really saying that they were part of the problem because they provided the money? Surely that money was provided for marketing/exposure purposes, and yes that funding continues from success (with all the pressures that brings) but to say that they were as guilty as the dopers is unfair. Even if they turned a blind eye, you could say exactly the same about virtually every other sponsor out there.

A starting point would be the break up of the UCI as IMO they have lost all credibility and a new properly elected governing body replacing the ‘old guard’. I would also like to see a lifetime ban for anyone caught from now on. There is no excuse if the rules and penalties for breaking them are clear from the outset.

Cycling will never have a better opportunity to clean up its act, lets face it, public opinion can’t get much lower!

There is no excuse if the rules and penalties for breaking them are clear from the outset.

To be fair, those rules really do already exist.

What you are hoping is that every dirty rider will just go “oh, okay I won’t join UCI version 2 ‘cos I was/am doping”. I just can’t see it happening.

Though I do agree it is time to bite the bullet and do a proper clearout and restart.

Wiggins got a 5

Bet he’s got his fingers crossed the UCI try to tough this one out… and to make it explicit, yes, I suspect him of doping.

A clean 😉 start is the only way

As someone else said, some sort of truth and reconciliation period with consequences and rewards

Riders would need to ….

1. Admit all doping and where/who they got it from during the inquiry period
2. Agree to be banned for life and all pro earnings returned if caught in future

In return, they will start with a clean slate and not prosecuted, banned or sanctioned.
Any rider that fails to be fully open and honest during the inquiry and is subsequently found out will face life-time bans and legal action to return prize money etc.

Markie,

“Wiggins got a 5

Bet he’s got his fingers crossed the UCI try to tough this one out… and to make it explicit, yes, I suspect him of doping.”

The conspiracy of silence – everyone on here was trying to ignore that 😉

Just heard a rumour Skoda pulled out of cycling too 😯 (trying to find substance to it)

Sram have joined the desertion of LA

http://road.cc/content/news/69265-sram-drops-lance-armstrong-oakley-stand-their-man%E2%80%A6-now

Any rider that fails to be fully open and honest during the inquiry and is subsequently found out will face life-time bans and legal action to return prize money etc.

Might just work.

Right now, as DM so clearly shows, doping and getting caught isn’t necessarily a hindrance to a successful career in professional cycling (as long as you fess up quickly and play the repentant role well for the press). So if that really is the situation, why not dope and see if you get away with it?

So how come no-one else has fessed up straight off if it’s that obvious and straightforward?

I was just about to ask-why are wiggins and cav assumed to be clean/drug free?
Genuine question!

So how come no-one else has fessed up straight off if it’s that obvious and straightforward?

In that respect, to give him his due, DM is a lot smarter than most other dopers. Although I suspect the smartest just don’t get caught in the first place.

I was just about to ask-why are wiggins and cav assumed to be clean/drug free?

It’s obvious, because they say so in their biographies! The cask iron STW test of authenticity, unless you’re American 😉

Sponsors come and go, always have always will. It’s not the beginning of the end.

I was just about to ask-why are wiggins and cav assumed to be clean/drug free?

I don’t think that’s the case unless you happen to be in the UK. If it crossed my mind when Cav in particular started leaving others for dead, it’s no surprise the rumours abroad have been rife.

I’m afraid I don’t accept DM’s point that Rabobank have missed an opportunity to clean up the sport. It is not their responsibility; that belongs to the administrators, competitors and legislators of the sport. Once that is in order then sponsors help to pave the way for a sport to be financially viable as a commercial proposition.

My surprise is that Rabobank and some other sponsors have stayed so long. I also think it is telling that, apart from bike companies and cycling related manufacturers (including Garmin), there are few truly multi-national brands represented prominently in the professional cycling ranks (Europecar being the only one that springs to mind).

there are few truly multi-national brands represented prominently in the professional cycling ranks (Europecar being the only one that springs to mind).

Sky, Nissan, Sharp are 3 others

Thanks, you’re quite right. I still consider it a fairly small roster given that there are events worldwide and that the ‘potential’ for sponsors wanting international exposure is greater than he take up. A large factor in that must be the sport’s reputation for cheating and I don’t believe any potential commercial investor would want to take on the responsibility for cleaning up the sport’s act.

I don’t think that’s the case unless you happen to be in the UK. If it crossed my mind when Cav in particular started leaving others for dead, it’s no surprise the rumours abroad have been rife.

Cav scored a 1, the the UCI have (had) nothing on him, not even a fluctuation in his biological passport. Personaly I think that kind of information is worth having in the open, might make riders think twice if their public perception is instantly damaged rather than a chance it may at some point in the future.

On the other hand studies show it’s not human nature to think about the future too much, most foreward planning is lined to not repeating mistakees rather than some instinct to be prepared.

And there was an interesting article in ‘i’ yesterday about how the media is obsessed with the release of information. We already ‘knew’ Coulson, Brookes and Cameron were too cozy, why do we want his personal e-mails to prove this, we knew Saudi Arabia and America have an arms length relationship behind closed doors, why did we need wikileaks to prove it, we knew pop stars have teenage groupes, why is Savile supprise? Ditto Lances dopeing, it’s not realy a suprise to anyone. The media (and society in general) has to think about what is already known rather than obsessing over the release of evidence.

Another take, Cav is so shit as an all rounder if he were dopeing his keeping up with the Pelaton would stick out like a sore thumb.

Why is LA so vilified right now? It’s because he took drugs. He cheated. It’s not because he’s an asshole or whatever.

Do you think lieing about it, bullying folk who were going to tell and still insisting he is clean has nothing to do with it, its all about the bike, the book, the persecution of clean athletes – Seriously??

It’s because he let people down by cheating. The opinion on here may be a little different, particularly where people are trying not to look hypocritical as they actually don’t mind cheats as long as they’ve said sorry. It’s pathetic.

Well not as wrong as usual but again you misrepresent people’s view – there is a list of logical fallacies on Wiki you should read it. I shall repeat that there is a difference between a repentant cheat and one who denies ever cheating. You are free to take any view on this and too disagree but what you cannot do is pretend the two cases are the same or that folk are motivated by racism or the nationality of the people- well you can but you look daft.

Whoa…I’ve not said that the cases are the same.
I’m saying that by and large, LA is getting shit for cheating. Many others have cheated, even some ones we like (which may or may not be due to his nationality). I don’t equate patriotism with being a racist so I’ll thank you not to insinuate that I’ve accused anyone of racism.
The bigger crime is the cheating itself, not the “being a asshole” part.
As such, I do not find it logical that one is smashed pillar to post once found guilty, and the other is not only because he said sorry. He’s really not done much more than that from what I can see. He’s kept the money. He’s riding professionally now.
But whatever. This is just my opinion. I really CBA with a row over this.
Just one question though; what if LA come along all humble and sorry. Does he get the same allowance that Millar gets?

what if LA come along all humble and sorry. Does he get the same allowance that Millar gets?

Well, it’s not an ‘if’ he didn’t, to be comparable to DM he’d have to have owned up and joined the others in submiting evidence to the USADA years ago.

The bigger crime is the cheating itself, not the “being a asshole” part.

A matter of oppinion, most people it would seem regard cheating with EPO as being part of 90’s cycling, a regretable part, but history none the less. He’s the villan because he’s an asshole about it.

Well, it’s not an ‘if’ he didn’t, to be comparable to DM he’d have to have owned up and joined the others in submiting evidence to the USADA years ago.

Hang on, does being repentant have a time limit? Surely if DM felt that guilty he’d have owned up before he was caught? I’ll go out on a limb and say that had he not been caught, DM would never had admitted to taking drugs.

I read this bit of Rabobank’s statement:

We are no longer convinced that the international professional world of cycling can make this a clean and fair sport. We are not confident that this will change for the better in the foreseeable future

as a big middle finger to the UCI. Which is probably a good thing, long-term.

Hang on, does being repentant have a time limit? Surely if DM felt that guilty he’d have owned up before he was caught?

Define it as the earliest oppertunity?

Do you?
a) tell your bos you use STW in working hours
b) grovel and appologise and say it wont happen again if it comes up
c) call him every name under the sun, threaten your co-workers who told him youd been on STW and their families, say your history is clear (you were clever and deleted it), refuse the tribunal and claim that because you didnt go then you’re not guilty.

b) grovel and appologise and say it wont happen again if it comes up

But Lance has only just been “caught”. He still has the opportunity to react in exactly the same way DM did when he was caught.

But Lance has only just been “caught”. He still has the opportunity to react in exactly the same way DM did when he was caught.

DM put his hands up and pleeded guilty (the Tyler Hamilton of this case?), Lance has had more than enough investigations and oppertunities to plead guilty, instead he’s filed lawsuit after lawsuit, threatened everyone and their dog, then picked his toys up and gone home. Unless he’s got soem real trump cards up his sleve (evidence he did bribe the UCI?) then coming clean now isn’t realy complying with the investigations is it?