Question for teachers/youth workers – first aid procedures

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  • Question for teachers/youth workers – first aid procedures
  • Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber
    grum
    Member

    Teachers are quite possibly not insured to take pupils in their cars – don’t see what stopping them calling a taxi or ambulance though.

    I’m a youth worker (amongst other things) and I’d have called an ambulance I think.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    grum – that was my thought, accepting the possible insurance argument (as a former claims manager I’d think that was being harsh though), but it seems the ambulance/taxi option is not the done thing.

    Matt_SS_xc
    Member

    Pretty standard procedure. If they go in an ambulance a member of staff has to go with them so parents picking up is much much easier and preferred by the school!

    luke
    Member

    With my parent hat on I wouldn’t be impressed at all, probably a valid point about the insurance, but calling an ambulance I would expect as a minimum, especially after contacting the parents and being told it would be over an hour before they could get there.
    My wife had a trampoline accident and developed DVT and we almost lost here, it hasn’t stopped our daughter who loves trampolining.

    As a scout leader I would have called the ambulance, after many an uneventful event on the last two events we have had 2 ambulances a fast response paramedic and the local first responders, one didn’t require hospitalisation the other the child was in hospital for a few hours and discharged, but better to be safe then sorry.

    Premier Icon lapierrelady
    Subscriber

    We’re not insured to carry kids in our cars…could have used a minibus though!

    banks
    Member

    Aye not insured to take them in our own cars but just ring 999 & they’ll deal with it as appropriate. Unless you work at offerton high school & your a donut

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    I’d asked them why they hadn’t rang 999 a kid with a possibly broken arm is a damn good reason to ring. Letting them sit for what could have been a hour in pain is ridiculous.

    Seems daft not to have called an ambulance imo.

    project
    Member

    I would ask the school in writing for their risk assesment as regards use of a trampoline, along with the qualifications of staff trained to supervise the activity, along with their policy in writing of what happens if a child suffers an injury.

    That should make then stand up and be counted,also mention you may be pursuing a claim for a family holiday, compenstation for lack of care by the staff concerned.

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    Completely unreasonable, 999 is the only reasonable response. Member of staff to accompany, and if that means other groups in the school need to combine to give staff cover, then tough. Perfectly reasonable and sensible for the parent to call 999 after taking the call from the school too.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    Firstly, this is not intended to be a thread having a go at teachers or health & safety etc etc, just want to know what procedures are.

    A mate at work got a phone call from his daughters school last Thursday to say his daughter had (probably) broken her arm in a trampolining accident.

    The school insisted that he or his wife had to take her to hospital to be checked out, the school would not take responsibility. Unfortunately he works over an hour from the school and his wife doesn’t drive. Apparently the school phoned him every 15 minutes while he was trying to get there to see where he was.

    His wife got her to hospital in a taxi before he could get there, the arm was definitely broken – he was proudly showing off the x rays today! – but apparently due to the delay in getting her to the hospital they couldn’t get the right surgical team in to pin it all back in place until Saturday, so my mate is a little miffed with the school not taking some more proactive action straight away.

    MrsMoreCash is a Guide leader and she seemed to think that the school had acted reasonably. I’m just a bit surprised – if I thought a kid I was responsible for had done themselves some damage requiring an X-ray etc I would expect to get them to the hospital and get the parents to meet me there, but this is obviously not the accepted policy?

    I sort of understand the schools position to an extent, but how do you make the call between getting them to hospital and leaving it for the parents to sort out?

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Drac – Moderator

    999
    ^this, or fastest way to medical treatment. What if there had been complications – eg lack of blood circulation?7

    I would ask the school in writing for their risk assessment as regards use of a trampoline, along with the qualifications of staff trained to supervise the activity, along with their policy in writing of what happens if a child suffers an injury.

    However I would expect that most children would not need supervising on play equipment, should they understand reasonable and responsible behaviour. HSE have a great statement on this
    The statement starts with a thumbs-up for adventurous, challenging play. It says that play allows children and young people to “explore and understand their abilities; helps them to learn and develop; and exposes them to the realities of the world in which they will live, which is a world not free from risk but rather one where risk is ever present.” It recognises that “children will often be exposed to play environments which, whilst well-managed, carry a degree of risk and sometimes potential danger.” And it encourages schools, councils and others to “deal with risk responsibly, sensibly and proportionately.”

    That should make then stand up and be counted,also mention you may be pursuing a claim for a family holiday, compenstation for lack of care by the staff concerned.

    Errr, no.
    http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/coa-upholds-commonsense-appeal-over-school-pi-claim/5038249.article

    Premier Icon somouk
    Subscriber

    I’ve dealt with a few accidents involving broken arms/legs etc at schools and I’ve always 999’d it and sent a suitable adult with the child.

    A member of the management team can normally cover a class while a teacher goes unless it is a primary school where staff levels are normally low. Could always send a teaching assistant.

    Sorry, the insurance is a red herring. The law demands that all vehicle policies cover the driver for injuries to passengers in the car. There was quite a stooshie when this was introduced in the 60’s.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    It’s not the injury to passengers that is the issue (that’s compulsory third party liability), it’s using your car for a work/business purpose when teachers may not have business use.

    No claim for the accident from my mate btw, accepts it was one of those things, proper trampoline coaches etc. It’s just the lack of action that has annoyed him.

    That, and the telephone call from the head the next day asking several fishing questions to try and establish if they would be claiming, and suggesting that my mate’s daughters drug regime (liver transplant at 11 months old, so anti rejection stuff) might make her more susceptible to broken bones in the first place….. 🙄

    Premier Icon oxym0r0n
    Subscriber

    Most have business use in my school (primary) – head would take or phone 999 I’d have thought

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    Seems I’m not alone with my thoughts on this – I’d ask my mate who works in H&S for a council but I suspect that he may end up getting the accident report from the school in question!

    I may also check the policy at my kids primary school as well…..

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    It’s not the injury to passengers that is the issue (that’s compulsory third party liability), it’s using your car for a work/business purpose when teachers may not have business use.

    Most SLT in schools have this. It costs no more.

    I certainly wouldnt have taken her on my motorbike if it had happend at my school! Not insured for pillions!!

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    The insurance is a red herring too, a significant fracture requires ambulance/paramedic response for proper immobilization and monitoring in case of internal blood loss or nerve damage.

    mattsccm
    Member

    As teacher it would be 999.
    However there just might be a reason for that not to happen and to be honest you have come across half a story. Nothing short of the horses mouth should be believed from both sides .

    t would not be sensible for a parent to call 999 if the school has and I am damn sure a remote call could be frowned upon as it would be too indirect. The 999 response team would want 1st hand details not 3rd hand from a distraught parent.

    The real answer is nothing to do with us and is strictly between the school and the parent’s. There will be a policy to deal with this and the parents should be aware of it

    cbike
    Member

    Seems reasonable to me. Child protection policy may mandate that two teachers would need to accompany the child. Insurance for work purposes as above. A teacher can’t authorise anything at the hospital anyway.
    It doesn’t seem serious enough to require an ambulance and if you did call one it would be quicker to transport yourself.

    Best to get the parents over as quick as possible – transport for them is not the schools problem.

    I am a PT Pupil Support in a secondary school. We would have called the parent to take the child to hospital as OP’s case. As mentioned above, staff cannot give consent for treatment – the parent is required to do this.

    Obviously if the injury was life threatening, 999 is the way to go, and consent is less of an issue. There will be loads of exceptions and circumstances where practice will have to be modified. Jehovah’s Witness child requiring blood transfusion anyone?…

    antigee
    Member

    Parent and former Beaver Scout Leader
    options
    2 people travel with the kid to A&E in a member of staff’s car – I’m sure most teachers/TA’s would avoid using car for work related activities because of insurance issues but this would seem a reasonable exception
    1 person takes the child and sits them in the rear of the car – personally I would avoid that option but if really stuck

    Suggest parent pays for a taxi and member of staff travels with child and parent pays for taxi back when arrives

    Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource and probably would take 20/30mins as non urgent unless hit lucky

    As to consent – available responsible adult can give

    My daughter (who has a medical condition that means fractures are complicated) broke her wrist on her BMX a couple of weeks back – by the time I’d picked up her sister from Saturday job on way to hospital, picked up some food and books it would have been over an hour before I got there – OP doesn’t say if school gave pain relief – if didn’t based on 1 hour pick up and being in contact with parents that I would be annoyed about

    Ex youth worker here.

    When I worked in that area, my car was insured for business purposes. The policy was though that no staff member was allowed to travel alone in a car with a young person – I would have had to have another staff member or volunteer with me if I had taken a child/young person in my car. This was to protect against any sort of allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

    As for an emergency situation, it would be a matter of discretion. If a child was seriously hurt or unconscious, then 999 and first aid first, then call named emergency contact. Staff member would go with the child in the ambulance and meet parents/guardians there.

    For a minor injury that still may require hospital treatment, we would not have been inclined to send a child in an ambulance for the reasons outlined by antigee. If we had the staff available, and the parents agreed, a staff member would take the child (accompanied by a second staff member). But the reality is that sparing 2 staff isn’t always possible, so in that case, we would have had to ask parents to pick them up. The alternative if parents had no transport was sending the child in a taxi accompanied by a staff member or volunteer.

    We would not have been allowed to administer any pain relief to a child under 16 without parents’ permission, and even then not allowed to a child under 12 at all. If the parents allowed their child to carry kiddie paracetamol or something with them, then we’d look the other way though.

    It all seems pretty draconian but the rules these days governing that sort of thing are, and you bet your life a lot of parents will sue the behind off you if anything happens to their kids, even if you try to do the right thing.

    bencooper
    Member

    As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them. Ambulance if you can’t take them yourself.

    However, I remember when I broke my arm as a kid*. Cycled home, had dinner, father at the dinner table noticed my arm was a funny shape, so we had pudding then drove to the hospital.

    *Rode my Raleigh Pickle into a lamp post while trying to do a no-handed jump.

    Not a parent, youth worker, or teacher. I am a first aider though, FWIW.

    In this instance, 999 all the way. No one has mentioned it yet, but there was a complication, whether you like it or not. It’s called “shock” – it can’t be avoided and if left untreated it can be fatal.

    This is one of those incidents where procedure seems to have overtaken common sense. If it had been me, an ambulance would have been summoned first, parents contacted second (and kept updated, every ten minutes or so) and the child taken to hospital whether the parents agreed to it or not.

    As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them

    In my experience (admittedly professional) kids are fairly adept at breaking themselves. It’s that attitude that is the reason why schools, youth clubs etc act the way they do. Always got to be someone’s fault. When I was a kid, accidents, broken bones etc was part of life being a kid.

    A hurt child usually feels better when their parent or main carer is with them, FWIW, so that’s also why it’s preferable that the parents take their child to hospital.

    No one has mentioned it yet, but there was a complication, whether you like it or not. It’s called “shock” – it can’t be avoided and if left untreated it can be fatal.

    Tell that to the paramedics who showed up at the youth club I worked at a few years ago and had a go at us for wasting their time on a kid with a suspected broken ankle. We were told it was non-urgent and therefore we shouldn’t have called them out.

    jaylittle
    Member

    We have a welfare officer that would tend to the pupil and make the decision. Going from past incidents she would call for an ambulance and call parents at the same time. If parents can get to school they would then accompany the child to hospital if not a member of staff would travel in the ambulance and stay with the child until parent arrived.

    poly
    Member

    TroutWrestler – Member
    I am a PT Pupil Support in a secondary school. We would have called the parent to take the child to hospital as OP’s case. As mentioned above, staff cannot give consent for treatment – the parent is required to do this.

    Obviously if the injury was life threatening, 999 is the way to go, and consent is less of an issue. There will be loads of exceptions and circumstances where practice will have to be modified. Jehovah’s Witness child requiring blood transfusion anyone?… Ah, another internet myth… …the issue of consent is a problem for the doctors not for the school. They will act in the interest of the patient, which for a broken arm might mean pain relief, x-rays, splint but no surgery before the parents arrive – they almost certainly wouldn’t leave a child in pain for an hour longer than necessary.

    mogrim
    Member

    The policy was though that no staff member was allowed to travel alone in a car with a young person – I would have had to have another staff member or volunteer with me if I had taken a child/young person in my car. This was to protect against any sort of allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

    WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What’s the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource

    You are aware what the first person on this thread suggesting “999” does for a job?

    soobalias
    Member

    What’s the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

    whole new thread required, possibly a new forum…… take this to mumsnet please.

    mogrim
    Member

    whole new thread required, possibly a new forum…… take this to mumsnet please.

    No, they’re scary on there 🙂

    As an aside: this British obsession with paedophiles is really weird when you look at it from abroad, the Spanish obsession is with wife-beaters/gender based violence, something which hardly registers in UK news.

    pondo
    Member

    As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them.

    IMHO, it’s the whole finger-pointing blame culture that means schools are becoming too scared of litagation to do anything other than wrap their charges in blacnkets and give them all the same grade by default.

    WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What’s the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

    Having a CRB check doesn’t make you immune to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

    antigee
    Member

    aracer – Member
    Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource
    You are aware what the first person on this thread suggesting “999” does for a job?

    No but I must admit to never reading the “what do you do for living” / “what small animals have you personally stuffed” threads
    I believe only footballers consider an ambulance essential for non life threatening injuries – Football Coach?

    Premier Icon boriselbrus
    Subscriber

    As a cub scout leader, cycle coach and first aid trainer my response would depend on the level of pain and distress the child was in. Lots of pain and distress – 999, child not too bothered – take him to hospital in my car (insured for business use) assuming I have someone who can supervise the rest of the group. If I haven’t then it’s an ambulance.

    Making a distressed child sit around and wait for a parent to deal with it for an hour – unacceptable and more likely to result in a claim IME.

    The child’s welfare comes first and any procedure which protects the school/organisation before the child is IMO an unreasonable procedure and likely to fall flat if questioned in court.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What’s the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

    Great world we live in now ain’t it! But it’s comments such as Project’s (compensation) and bencooper’s (you broke them) above that got us where we are though. We are procedured and protocolled to high heaven so the common sense solution just can’t happen. As a society we reap what we sow I guess….

    As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them.

    IMHO, it’s the whole finger-pointing blame culture that means schools are becoming too scared of litagation to do anything other than wrap their charges in blacnkets and give them all the same grade by default.

    WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What’s the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

    Having a CRB check doesn’t make you immune to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

    This.

    An allegation of inappropriate conduct towards a young person can ruin a career. Therefore as a professional, you don’t take the risk. If it was you and them in the car, it’s your word against theirs so you can’t disprove anything. And the parents will come for you with pitchforks, whether you are guilty or not.

    In my experience in that area of work, there seems to be little in between the parents who don’t give a monkeys what their kids are up to as long as they’re out of their hair, and the parents who will sue over a broken fingernail.

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