Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 395 total)
  • Putoline question
  • Premier Icon tomnavman
    Full Member

    I’m interested but a lot of people are comparing to “traditional” wet lubes, which I agree are awful.

    What about a comparison to something like Squirt or Rock n Roll Extreme? I’m currently using these and really impressed with them in all conditions.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    TBH I never got on with squirt, or UBS, on the road bike it would be dry and grumble <50 dry miles. What’s the point of a lube that only lasts half an average ride in perfect conditions and has to be built up in layers over a period of days before you can ride, made putoline seem like simplicity!

    The drivechain stayed clean though, which you’d expect seeing as there was nothing for the mud to mix with.

    Not tried R&R extreme. the reviews sound good, but again, having to apply it the day before and let the solvent dry overnight sounds like a PITA. In a pinch you can put a hot putoline on (wear those big red work gloves) without any issues. Or just stick some wet lube on and putoline it when you get back (my usual option if the chain has orange flecks showing, although as TJ says there’s probably still plenty of wax remaining inside the rollers and a wipe with light oil on a rag would do to keep corrosion off).

    Premier Icon tomnavman
    Full Member

    I just lube the chain after I clean the bike, stops it going rusty and means its ready to ride next time, no faff! IF I’m away and riding multiple wet days I’ll wipe the chain with a rag to get the worst off and then re-lube, it’ll dry in the van overnight ready for the next days ride. Not really any more faff than normal lube, just apply at a different time? And no black gunk build up all over the drivetrain, jockey wheels etc has to be a bonus!

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    “Cheapest deep fat fryer I can find at the moment; https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7173961”

    That’s the one I’ve got. I put all the Putoline in there and then dunked three chains in for a few minutes once it was up to 190C.

    I’m intending to rotate the chains to lengthen my cassette life, so I’ll only have to re-Putoline once all three are well used, which based on this first chain will be months!

    Premier Icon kcr
    Free Member

    Compare it to how long conventional lube might have lasted though.

    In the conditions I cycled in, I expect conventional lube to last a lot longer.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    I find this interesting – most of us using it report much improved life. a few do not. somewhere there is an answer to this

    KCR – did you degrease the chain first? did yo get the wax really hot so its nice and runny? Have you tried twisting the chain? ( when you twist it you can feel if there is still wax in the rollers) Are yo mistaking it being dry n the outside for no lube in the inside? ( I doubt this one as yu said it was squeaking) I am just looking for a reason – not that I doubt you

    I just do not get it and I was getting around a thousand road miles in winter before needing to retreat it but KCR gets less than 50 miles.

    *scratches head*

    Premier Icon markgraylish
    Free Member

    Just wondering…but if Putoline is so good, why don’t manufacturers use it on new chains? Too much hassle during production??

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    another obvious question but how do you get the Putoline into the dff to start with, did you melt in the tin and pour (I don’t like the idea of carrying tins of 170+ wax about) or just cut and scrape it out of the tin into the dff?

    Premier Icon tillydog
    Full Member

    What about a comparison to something like Squirt or Rock n Roll Extreme? I’m currently using these and really impressed with them in all conditions.

    I used a whole bottle or RnR Extreme – I thought it worked OK, but it had a tendency to dribble everywhere when applying it. Lasted a dirty MTB ride just about. Needed applying after every MTB ride. Could be tempted to use it again.

    Bought a bottle of Squirt based on the hype on here – absolutely useless. I was told I was doing it wrong, and that I needed to apply it more lovingly, and to start with a brand new, de-greased chain, or that I needed to put several layers on, all of which i did. Still bloody useless. The chain was rusty before I even got it out of the shed, and graunching before I got to the end of the road. I’ll leave the remains of the bottle outside my gate if anyone wants it.

    Muc-off wet (pink bottle)- effective, but absolutely filthy & built up crud like nothing else. May as well use heavy oil.

    Bike Hut chain lube – ok, cheap but a but messy (as muc-off wet)

    Muc-off dry (yellow bottle) – Easy to apply, but not very good. OK in the dry, but wouldn’t last a full MTB ride if there was any sort of water around.

    Muc-off dry ceramic (green bottle) – easy to apply (can be applied to a wet chain and it will stop it rusting). Lasts adequately – not usually a problem on an MTB ride. I hose the chain off with water after a ride, directing the water onto the chain while I turn the pedals backwards which cleans the chain up. Let it dry (or shake most of the water off if in a rush) and apply one drop per roller. Whizz the pedals around a couple of times and put bike in shed. Never have to remove, clean or de-grease the chain and they last ~800 miles on the MTB.

    Haven’t tried wax on my MTB, but have been using it on my Diverge which is my weekday commuter / weekend gravel bike since mid 2017.

    It’s a homebrew mixture which I guess is similar to Putoline. (From the comments above it may be a little softer than Putoline – I’ve never had it flake off the outside of the links.)

    I was keeping a log of when I’d waxed it, but it sort of fizzled out, but for interest, this is what I got.

    Original chain (KMC, but unknown spec), various lubes above lasted 1271 miles / 132 days

    KMC X10 wax first applied at 1972 miles / 254 days old lasted to 2633 miles / 371 days old

    KMC X10 waxed from new 20/10/17.
    Next waxed 18/11/17 661 miles later.
    Next waxed 26/11/17 92 miles later (culminating in a 67 mile very wet, gritty gravel loop of Sarn Helen and Trawsfynydd)

    [url=https://flic.kr/p/2if8u9d]DSC06493[1][/url] by tillydog, on Flickr

    Next waxed 11/2/18 198 miles later
    Then things peter out a bit for various reasons I was riding less and the next entry I have is 24/3/19 at 634 miles later, but I’m not certain I haven’t missed one.
    Wasn’t waxed again until I changed it 240 miles later. It had only done ~1400 miles at this point, but I was having shifting issues, so changed it. Turned out to be a frayed shifter cable.

    I find the waxing thing very low hassle, and it suits me for my gravel/road bike that just needs to work every day when you get it out of the shed without having to faff with it too regularly.

    YMMV (literally)

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    I’m intending to rotate the chains to lengthen my cassette life

    All my chains rotate

    Premier Icon tillydog
    Full Member

    It has a quirk because it’s a wax it sets hard in the cold weather. My road bike sounds like a bag of spanners on a really cold morning until the wax breaks down a bit.

    As a bold an adventurous sort, you could try tweaking the mix to avoid this – adding beeswax (10% or so) will make it softer and more adhesive, and/or adding some EP gear oil (a few %??) will stop it setting solid and provide some corrosion protection if it does flake off.

    My mix contains both of these and seems OK (no bag of spanners), but I rarely go out on it at/below freezing.

    Premier Icon papamountain
    Free Member

    Just a note to the putoline users. The data sheet says melting point 68°C and flash point 200°C.
    heating it to 190°C is pretty close to it catching fire…

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    not strictly true, you still need an ignition source (which is why doing it on a gas hob might not be a wise idea) but if MP is genuinely 68C it does make me query why it needs to go to 170C in a dff.

    I get the viscosity will reduce as T increases, and so penetration is better but 170 or 190 is a heck of a load more than 68

    [edit] it doesn’t say the MP is 68C, it says >68C. That could be way more……

    https://api.kroon-oil.com/pdf/en/safetysheet/SDS-PO1002-chain-wax-EN.pdf

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    Plus, it goes incredibly thin at any real temperature- you want it to be barely liquid.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    adding beeswax (10% or so) will make it softer and more adhesive

    I dunno, it’s incredibly sticky already. It’s not really wax as such, not like candle wax anyway. More like boot polish but sticky.

    Good point re the flashpoint – didn’t read the data sheet. I’ll turn the fryer down.

    Plus, it goes incredibly thin at any real temperature- you want it to be barely liquid.

    Why?

    Premier Icon tillydog
    Full Member

    you want it to be barely liquid

    Personally, I don’t. I want it to be really runny. I heat mine(*) until it’s a similar viscosity to full fat milk (say). This is >>60°C but probably <100°C. Certainly nowhere near 190°C.

    (*) Not real Putoline, but very similar.

    Premier Icon tillydog
    Full Member

    I dunno, it’s incredibly sticky already. It’s not really wax as such, not like candle wax anyway. More like boot polish but sticky.

    I’ll bet it already has a proportion of beeswax (or synthetic equivalent in it already) – I was suggesting adding a bit more as an experiment to make it *softer* so it didn’t set hard on cold days.

    Premier Icon sirromj
    Full Member

    I have one of those portable hobs which I used to use to heat up the tin, but I’ve gone down the DFF route now, much less hassle, and quicker to reach MP. Have also been wondering about temperature. I’ve felt cautious about going around 180 with it, but have anyway. Could that temp be detrimental to it? Burn it?

    I do prefer the higher temps – it means more drips off the sides of the chain so less to wipe down after – and the chain is definitely well lubed internally because it’s always silent after a Putoline dip.

    I tend to leave my chains in there for a good 20 minutes also, usually because there’s other bike maintenance jobs to do at the same time.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    DFF reserved at Argos, putoline will be in my Amazon locker on Friday. I’m either converted, and my chain lubing life will never be the same again, or there’ll be a starter kit on the classifieds in a month or so.

    Or my garage will have burnt down.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    Its only noisy/stiff initially, like a hundred meters or so, long enough for the chain to go round the jockey wheels a few times. You notice it most when setting off on cold mornings because the chains solid and wont back pedal!

    >68 sounds about right, its definitley liquid at 110. It smokes if it gets hot, usually if its melting so theres no convection and the bit on the bottom is starting to burn.

    Cant figure out what’shappening to KCR’s chains. I looked at my CX bike last night which has done at least 4 muddy rides since its last coating, and washed with muck off after each ride, there’s the odd orange spot, but still plenty of wax. And by road standards that bike only sees horrendous conditions. My road bike would be about the same time, so probably 250 miles or so of winter riding and washing every few rides, but no rain. No signs of it losing any wax yet.

    Premier Icon edward2000
    Free Member

    I presume people keep the putoline in the deep fat fryer once finished with? Seems an obvious thing to me but just checking, what’s the point in storing it in the tin once it’s been in the fryer?

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    I presume people keep the putoline in the deep fat fryer once finished with? Seems an obvious thing to me but just checking, what’s the point in storing it in the tin once it’s been in the fryer?

    Yup, there is no way you will ever be able to use the fryer for anything else ever again!

    And in response to someone up there’s question, I scooped it out with a spoon, but pouring would be easier if you have a camp stove (I’d run out of meths).

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    1.2l sounds about right, you don’t want any bigger as there’s only about 1l of putoline. As small as possible is best but I doubt anyone makes one smaller!

    Premier Icon davosaurusrex
    Full Member

    Ta, less valuable worktop space it takes up the better. Might fare better than a white one in terms of grubbiness too

    Premier Icon FB-ATB
    Full Member

    I’m tempted to try this but I want my drivetrain to wear out so I can convert to 1x and fit a dropper!

    Do you have to be careful what you use to clean the cassette with in case it contaminates/strips the wax from the chain?

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    Do you have to be careful what you use to clean the cassette with in case it contaminates/strips the wax from the chain?

    It doesn’t get gummed up, see TJ’s pic, that’s about as bad as it gets really. And what you can see is the wax/graphite. I just wash the bike as normal (hose, muck-off, hose, bucket of water+shampoo and a sponge, hose). I just hose it to flush out any grass, twigs etc that have got caught in there.

    Premier Icon FB-ATB
    Full Member

    Cheers for the info- looks like I’ll have to ride more and clean my drivetrain less to hasten it’s demise! Though 27.2 dropper posts with a decent drop look scarce.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    molgrips

    Subscriber

    Why?

    Cos if it’s really thin, more runs out when you remove the chain from the wax. You can feel the difference between chains treated both ways as soon as they’ve solidified- the hotter the wax, the looser the chain, meaning that less wax has stayed where it needs to be inside the links.

    Premier Icon doomanic
    Full Member

    Fryer arrived, wax decanted and heated to 120, chain dipped.

    What’s the optimum temp and time?

    Premier Icon alexnharvey
    Free Member

    A few points.

    I think that capillary action will mean that wax is retained inside the chain rather than flowing out.
    It is certainly true that a lower temperature (wax or ambient) means more wax is just on the outside of the chain.

    I think that the small amounts of grease or oil are irrelevant to the wax mix. Indeed, homebrew waxers often add some oil or grease to the mix. I suspect that homeopathic amounts of detergent are irrelevant to wax too.

    I am not convinced that waxing dirty chains is sensible. Whilst larger heavy particles will fall to the bottom quickly, the smallest ones can stay in suspension for a long time. In fact this is used as a way of separating particles by size. Since most wax mixes contain solid lubricants like graphite, mos2 or PTFE such we want keep in suspension there is a risk that we also have very fine grit suspended. I use plain hot water or hot detergent rinses followed by plain water to remove grit.

    Premier Icon alexnharvey
    Free Member

    What don’t you try it at 120, then at 170 and see if you notice any difference?

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    What’s the optimum temp and time?

    Temp ~140 seems to work for me. Time, I did find longer works better for some reason, dunno if the chain takes longer to warm up than maybe would be expected. I tend to drop it in the basket, leave it for a bit, give it a shake, leave it for a bit, give it a shake, etc for 10-15 minutes while I do something else. I wipe of any excess from the outside with some old rag (wear thick work gloves and hold the chain with a bent spoke).

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    Do you have to be careful what you use to clean the cassette with in case it contaminates/strips the wax from the chain?

    Well you don’t need to clean the cassette every time, but I just use degreaser on the cassette and rings when I’m cooking the chain. It’s really not necessary, just cosmetic.

    Premier Icon i_like_food
    Full Member

    Loads of interesting stuff here, thanks to all the contributors. Almost at the buy and try point.

    What quick links are people (re)using? If it’s going on my road bike I’m a bit nervous about resuing on in case it goes pop in a sprint, or a baby robin dies. Or am I being overly nervous?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    alexnharvey

    Member

    I think that capillary action will mean that wax is retained inside the chain rather than flowing out.
    It is certainly true that a lower temperature (wax or ambient) means more wax is just on the outside of the chain.

    Nah, like I say you can feel the difference once it’s set- that’s not wax on the outside, it’s wax on the rollers.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I think you are being over cautious. The strain that the quiklink is under during pedalling, etc, on practically every revolution are way more than the effort of opening one up.

    If you opened one hundreds or thousands of times I guess conceivably the lip on them could wear so they became loose and possibly pop open, even then I’d be surprised as it’s kept either under tension on the top run by pedalling forces, or on the bottom by the derailleur but there could be moments of chain slap for example where it’s essentially slack.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    What quick links are people (re)using? If it’s going on my road bike I’m a bit nervous about resuing on in case it goes pop in a sprint, or a baby robin dies. Or am I being overly nervous?

    Overly nervous I think. I can’t see how opening a quick link makes it more likely to break. It does make it a bit looser, so it’s easier to undo after a few goes – but it’s hardly likely to undo itself during a ride IMO.

    Premier Icon Evesie
    Free Member

    I have decanted a small amount of the Putolibe wax into a smaller tin, found a suitable biscuit tin just over the diameter of a coiled chain, use a camping stove & get the job done in a fraction of the time taken to heat the whole original tin.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Full Member

    I have decanted a small amount of the Putoline wax into a smaller tin, found a suitable biscuit tin just over the diameter of a coiled chain, use a camping stove & get the job done in a fraction of the time taken to heat the whole original tin.

    Good plan.

    I bought a tin a few years ago on the strength of threads on here. I’ve not opened it yet, partly due some of the “tried it – not sure” comments, partly because it’s a lot cleaner and a lot less faff if I just leave it sealed. Not quite ready to open Pandora’s tin of Putoline!

    I think I’m waiting for the bottle of Finish line wet to run out. I’ve got about half left. Could take a while.

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