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  • Pulling up on the pedals..apparently a waste of time?
  • kaiser
    Free Member

    I’ve always found that scooping the pedal back and up helps ( pedalling in circles ) particularly when clinbing steep hills and was suprised to read that it’s apparently now been shown to be inefficient and unnecessary which is at odds with my experience. Maybe I’ve misunderstood something but what are your opinions on this technique ..is it really out of date and pointless?

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    I think sometimes, when standing up in particular, I don’t push a high enough gear and find myself balancing my weight on the front leg by resisting with the back leg to keep my action “smooth”. It’s easy to slip into until I realise that I’m trying relatively hard even though I’m not going fast at all. That’s totally unproductive and an “exercise” such as actively pulling up would make you stop doing that, I guess.

    But yeah, a fluid stroke and no pulling up is supposedly the best option.

    (hate to say it, but a power meter or something like zwift that has instant feedback is likely very helpful and I think it’s done me a lot of good)

    geex
    Free Member

    All cycling is a waste of time man. That’s the beauty of it. 😉

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    Edukator
    Free Member

    I suggest that the person making those claims be given a mountain to ride with and without clicky pedals. I’m a great fan of flats and use them 99% of the time. However, when there’s a clock running and the course is more uphill than down I use the clicky horrors. I timed myself on a nearly flat and not very technical trail, I was consistently 2-3 seconds a minute quicker with clicky pedals than with 5:10 Impacts on grippy pedals. Up hill it makes more difference.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Do your own research 😉 couple of hours on a watt bike and let’s see the graphs. I’m happy it’s doing something.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I suggest you try accelerating by pulling up instead of pushing down to find out just how inefficient it is.

    sarawak
    Free Member

    Back in the days of my competitive youth I was a reasonable tester. Always top 2 or 3 on club 10 rides and regular top 10 in open events.
    I spent the whole of one winter teaching myself to lift my trailing leg. Was hard to do just riding around but on the types of road that TT were held on I became quite proficient at it. I learned to be able to lift my trailing leg for up to 15 minutes at a time.
    When the next season started I was always the man to beat on club nights and moved up to top three on open events.
    It’s hard work and to gain any benefit you have to keep it up for some time. This was in the days before powermeters and other digital gizmos but there was a definite benefit to me on the type of races I was doing.
    Set all my PB times this way and finished 4th in Nat 25 Champs one year.

    Does it work? Did for me but might not for others, but it’s hard to perfect.

    You have to learn to push down with one leg and pull up with the other. It’s a mental thing as much as anything.

    kaiser
    Free Member

    I suggest you try accelerating by pulling up instead of pushing down to find out just how inefficient it is.

    yes but you pull up with one leg and push down with the other one at the same time . By aiding the foot pushing down you can spin it more easily /faster surely ?

    It’s not one person who makes those claims , it’s all over the web if you google, which is why it suprised me. They seem to be saying that by pulling up you’re likely to be less focused on the other foot pushing down which is MUCH more important.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    They seem to be saying that by pulling up you’re likely to be less focused on the other foot pushing down which is MUCH more important.

    Which is different to the thread title. It will also differ as to the situation so a tt effort will be different to a stood up mtb effort.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Research brought to you by fiveten no doubt.

    sarawak
    Free Member

    Which is why I said it’s a mental thing. Doing a TT on A class roads you can get into a rhythm of lifting and pushing simultaneously. I never could get it working on mtb routes. Too much else to think about.

    kaiser
    Free Member

    Does it work? Did for me but might not for others, but it’s hard to perfect.

    That’s my experience ..when struggling up a steep climb it seems to help to keep the momentum going but have a look at what many experts say these days .have a look and another

    kaiser
    Free Member

    I said apparently pulling up on the pedals is a waste of time. In the telegraph article below the author says ” in short pulling on the upstroke does not work ” same thing no ?

    1. PEDALLING

    Pedalling technique is a much debated issue, with many cycling gurus advocating the concept of ‘using the whole of the pedal stroke’ by pulling on the upwards stroke as well as pushing on the downwards. I’m not a great believer in this philosophy. The best literature on this, in my opinion, comes from Dr Jeff Broker, who has dedicated over a decade of research to the art of pedalling.

    According to Dr Broker, pulling up on the pedal does not increase maximal power output, and in fact it can cause injury. Pulling the pedal up puts a lot of pressure on the hamstrings and the hip flexors. These muscles are designed to lift the weight of the leg against gravity whilst running or walking and struggle to cope with the demand of contracting repeatedly against the resistance of the pedal. As the muscle fatigues, this increases tightness, which can contribute to lower back and hip pain. In addition to this, at recommended cadences of 80-90rpm, the muscular system cannot contract and relax quick enough to deactivate one group of muscles and contract another. In other words, as the left leg pushes down, the right leg cannot get out of the way quick enough to create negative pressure on the pedal, let alone generate force in an upwards direction.

    In short, pulling on the upstroke does not work. So what is the correct pedal technique? Dr Broker advocates directing all your power into the downward stroke, starting the stroke at 12 o’clock, and ending it at 6 o’clock. This is termed the ‘drive phase’. As the drive phase is coming to an end on one leg, it should be beginning on the other leg, while the first leg relaxes. Peak torque during the drive phase should occur around the 3 o’clock position.”

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I’m not a great believer in this philosophy. The best literature on this, in my opinion, comes from

    One of my favourite lines from there 😉
    So we can leave it as up for debate and variable then. There are also a lot of points between the extremes of being carried through it and ripping up the pedals.

    kaiser
    Free Member

    seems like the articles are focusing on road cycling technique so maybe things are different under other circumstances .

    taxi25
    Free Member

     They seem to be saying that by pulling up you’re likely to be less focused on the other foot pushing down which is MUCH more important.

    This is true, but only if your unpractised in.

    you pull up with one leg and push down with the other one at the same time . By aiding the foot pushing down you can spin it more easily /faster surely ?

    Dr Broker seems to miss the point that you don’t try to use equal power pulling up, just a bit extra to maintain the circle at the top and bottom of the stroke.

    sarawak
    Free Member

    All this debate seems to be centred on a internet “expert” and we all know how reliable they can be.
    Undoubtedly for some riders on some routes there will be a benefit. Sitting on an indoor machine with a computer programme in front of you is unlikely to tell you little other than what the programmers want to tell you.

    Different strokes for different folks so get out there and try it. It’s not easy to master so that will rule millenials out, but under certain conditions for certain riders it can be of benefit.

    Will it benefit you? Nobody can possibly know until you try it.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    It’s something you have to get used to over time, i’ve Been focussing I bit for a while now and it is second nature soni’s Struggle to stop doing it now. Though in my experience it’s not as simple as ‘pulling up on the pedals’. You naturally employ a slightly different action for whatever circumstance you’re in.

    Sat on the saddle it is difficult to pull directly up so I tend to kick back with my feet at the bottom of the stroke and pull up to maybe 7 or 8 o’clock position. I don’t feel much benefit from pulling up any further.

    When grinding in the saddle I tend to sit back on the saddle so my hips are aft of the BB so again not much benefit in pulling past the 7 or 8 o’clock position.

    At high cadence or sprinting in the saddle i’ll Tend to be positioned forward on the saddle so hips in front of the bb, and I feel I can get benefit from pulling up further and it smooths out the transision from one leg to the next, so smoother pedal stroke and easier on the knees.

    When out of the saddle climbing I can’t seem to let much ‘kick back’ at the 6 o’clock position But can get a nice long back stroke all the way up to the 12 o’clovk Position. This gives you tons more power (as displayed on my power meter) and takes some pressure off the thighs.

    The biggest benefit is the kick back past the 6 o’clock position. If you lower your saddle a tad you can employ your calves more too to give you a bit more power…. not all the time, just when you need it.

    When technical climbing on the MTB it’s very helpful too as if you major on pulling up it nicely lightens your back end and helps you over high square edged obstacles.

    But if i’m Just motoring along on the flat not really pushing i’ll Probably not do any of this and just ride with downstrokes only.

    The dominating muscles are always they thighs and the downstroke still dominates, but now i’m used to it and the muscles are conditioned (mainly through spin classes) it gives me some options and shares the load with some other major and meaty muscle groups.

    There is not one technique to rule them all, it’s an individual thing so to say one technique is wrong or bad is not very bright. Look across the pro peleton today and you’ll see all manner of varying techniques and styles.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I’ve still got a pair of Power Pedals in the cupboard form my triathlon racing days. They had a roller clutch in which allowed you lever the crank round with the whole of your leg through the bottom of the stroke. Bjarn Riis used them sometimes. They worked but only at a cadence too low to be of real use in my case.

    One of my drills with normal pedals at the time was 1km right leg, 1km left leg until it got really uncomfortable. If I did it now I’d probably limp for a couple of weeks.

    Del
    Full Member

    I can only suggest that whoever wrote that was not considering gurning up a steep climb on a ss @ ~40 rpm.
    I find it gives relief on some muscle groups to emphasise the pull up during climbing on a geared bike too. YMMV

    dudeofdoom
    Full Member

    TBH I think a lot of the research is more roady focussed but IMHO my own take is what you think is happening and why is probably not what is actually happening, it’s a crank arm and both legs are in play your focus’s on pulling up but your actually still pushing down and your legs really good at this.

    I think the reality is you can’t beat a good smooth pedal technique.

    YMMV

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Back in the dim and distant past I did my uni dissertation on strain gauges in sports equipment. We even tried and failed to bond them into carbon fiber, so when 4iii announced they were going to release one that worked I was skeptical, a year later when they announced it wasn’t going to work I was a bit smug but that’s sidetracking!

    The just of the available published research was:

    “trainers” are massively inefficient, the rubber/foam sole soaks up a lot of the power, toe clips and stiff shoes next up, and SPD’s are top of the tree as there’s almost nothing lost through the cleat. The worst was 15% loss!

    Sub FTP you gain nothing pulling up, your threshold is a function of cardiovascular fitness so using more muscle groups just spreads the work around, you still only output approximately the same power. It’s been shown that even the pro’s don’t pull up, they don’t even completely unweight the back foot (the effort of pulling up it’s dead weight would take the same power as just putting more through the front foot). The only time you pull up is when really heaving on the pedals in a sprint as that’s anaerobic, and even then it’s a lot less than riders estimate (put your foot under something heavy and try and lift it, compared to the 100kg+ pushing).

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    A certain .Ake of big flat pedals makes all sorts of claims backed by science but the science is making very specific comparisons but the manufacturer is using it on very vague statements. One of the cited papers said the pull up/ scoop was very inefficient (solely as a method of pedaling).

    sirromj
    Full Member

    There’s also the technique where you flap your foot up and down with the pedal (so it points up at 12 o’clock and points down at six).

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    thisisnotaspoon

    …Sub FTP you gain nothing pulling up, your threshold is a function of cardiovascular fitness so using more muscle groups just spreads the work around, you still only output approximately the same power…

    I’m pretty sure it was on STW where some of the big hitters did some big hitting on me for suggesting that several years ago.

    I’d love a link if you have one (for next time 🙂 )

    kerley
    Free Member

    I can only suggest that whoever wrote that was not considering gurning up a steep climb on a ss @ ~40 rpm.

    That is the only time I consciously pull up on the pedals, if I need to stand and my RPM is under 40 then I will probably be pulling up. Whether it actually makes any difference is another matter though.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    Thisisnotaspoon has saved me some typing. I did read an extreme version of the it doesn’t matter which muscles when your aerobic concept. There is a guy who had a lower leg amputated. He has loads of power data before and after. Post surgery power output is only down for very sorry efforts

    I wish I had links to all the stuff of read on this. But basically people are only pulling for very brief periods of high power out put.

    I also read the greatest beneficiaries to being clipped in were of road cyclists. Basically they allow pedaling when the bike is being bumped around

    I’ll end with this video of a comparison

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    What does inefficient mean? You can’t just claim that without first qualifying what it means. I feel a benefit from the 6 o’clock scoop. I don’t do it 100% of the time and am not conscious of doing it when I do it as i’ve Drilled myself to use this technique over time so it now natural. It smooths out my pedal stroke in terms of power transfer from leg to leg. And in high cadence sprints it definitely smooths things out and stops any nasty stuff happening in the knee.

    And to say the hamstrings are not ‘designed’ for such duty is BS. Look at sprinters. The most important muscle groups for them are the hamstrings and buttocks, it’s where all their power is generated and transferred to the ground, it’s all about training to make muscle groups stronger. For cyclists who have spent decades only mashing down on pedals it’s not a surprise they find moving over to a different technique difficult. It’s like asking a right handed to live as a left handed person all of a sudden.

    grarea
    Free Member

    Apologies if this has already been said, but I haven’t read the whole thread.

    I never found pulling up to help.
    Well, it did, but it knackered my legs quicker, I found it better to save the energy for the down stroke. I assumed it was just me not having trained the muscles. Or that it was not relevant to me (I use toe clips mostly but not that tight)

    I had a bike fitter explain this to me just recently.
    He said that your energy is better spent on the down push as that is a stronger muscle group.
    He also said that it can take a while for the muscle to switch from pull to push, so by the time you are pushing, your foot is at (My numbers input here might not be accurate but gives you the idea of what he was saying), say 2 o’clock.

    He said to start putting the pressure on (kind of push forward and down) at, say, 11 o’clock so that it keeps the momentum and you are pushing from the very start of the down stroke.

    Seems to work for me (when I can be bothered to think about it)

    dudeofdoom
    Full Member

    I’m pretty sure it was on STW where some of the big hitters did some big hitting on me for suggesting that several years ago.

    Yeah I think this and the old flats vs spd and oval rings thang surfaces every so often.

    IMHO people overthink this stuff as long as the pedals go round with your feet on them smoothly your good to go.

    Interesting thou on the strain gauge on carbon as stages managed it but it’s there own arm.

    kaiser
    Free Member

    Grarea ..yes the way you described it is what the studies seem to have shown from my brief perusal of the various articles. Here’s another one for anyone interested ..explained in myth 2
    Here

    ampthill
    Full Member

    Had anyone got a link to an study that shows the benefits of pulling up?

    One problem in this thread might be understanding what we mean by pulling up. Good pedaling does involve unweighting the rising leg. This can feel like pulling up but it isn’t. Your just reducing the amount you are pushing down. This can be easier when clipped in as unweighted foot is more likely to move on the pedal

    whitestone
    Free Member

    +1 to what @ampthill says – it’s lifting the leg in time with the pedal so that you aren’t applying a braking force against the effort being done by the leg on the downward part of the stroke.

    wheelie
    Full Member

    I’m with ampthill on this one. In the 1950’s we were taught that at the bottom of the stroke to bring your foot back like you were lightly wiping you shoe, and then lift the weight of your leg and no more. Ankling was quite common too…a slight heel drop just before the 12 o’clock position, during the first bit of the downstroke. I find that all the above linked together in a smooth motion is a lot easier on the knees and matched with a decent cadence gives a good turn of speed.

    grarea
    Free Member

    One problem in this thread might be understanding what we mean by pulling up. Good pedaling does involve unweighting the rising leg. This can feel like pulling up but it isn’t. Your just reducing the amount you are pushing down. This can be easier when clipped in as unweighted foot is more likely to move on the pedal

    I had never thought of that.
    That is an interesting thought.
    I am interested to see what I do there.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I’d love a link if you have one (for next time 🙂 )

    I think it was ISEA/Sports Engineering journal. But you’d need a login to see it.

    SSing is a slightly different thing, as RPM drops torque has to increace to maintain power output. But I still don’t think there’s as much of a pull up as it feels like. If you’ve reached the limit of what you can push with one leg then biomechanically you can’t possibly add to it by pulling with the other. I think it’s more to do with keeping yourself stable whilst pushing with one leg as hard as possible, then your other leg and hands are giving you three points of contact to resist that.

    paton
    Free Member

    At about 2 minutes in

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