PSA lorry blind spot video….

Just out of curiosity…how many people who have posted arguments above along the lines of ‘lorry drivers should know…etc etc’ have actually driven HGVs themselves

I have a PSV licence.

What can a professional truck driver do if they physically cannot see if a cyclist has come done the side of their truck due to the blind spot. Get out and check all is clear then get back in the truck?
Some things they should do such as not attempting to overtake a cyclist if the truck driver is going to turn left immediatley after. Allow space when over taking. They can’t however compensate for what they dont’t know or able to see.

I’ve been wondering for a while why lorry cabs actually have to be so high up. Wouldn’t lowering them, a bit like modern coaches, improve the whole blind spot problem?

High to get above the engine. Minimum cab length means maximum load length.

I drove one for years and you can loose vans in the blind spot never mind bikes. Driving one through London was always a joy.

you can loose vans in the blind spot never mind bikes

aye perfect vehicles for our roads, better stick to motorways eh?

oooh maybe not

The reason for that incident was the Cleo driver who went straight from the slip road in the trucks blind spot to the middle lane. The truck driver was found not at fault and Cleo driver, a female vet, confirmed what had happened.

Yeah I saw the story, car drivers do stupid stuff nothing new there, the fact the HGV driver was scooting down the motorway at 60 oblivious to the car he was shunting along is the worrying part.

If the country needs HGVs then fair enough, keep em, but i think it would be fair to say they need some attention if they are going to stay on our public roads

So are we saying that it’s still the truck drivers fault that he didn’t see the car or feel it either as it was pushed to the front. A freak accident.
Yes we do need trucks on the road unless you want see the cost of goods skyrocket

i drive an daf xf 105 which has six mirror’s on it, 2 each side on the doors, 1 above the passenger door looking directly down to the kerb and 1 above the windscreen on the passenger side which looks down on the front nearside corner and across the front under the windscreen and yes it still possible to loose vehicle’s in blindspots.

A few weeks ago whilst going a long the A5 at shrewsbury there was a large number of cyclists (150+) travelling along in groups, i passed a group of 7 or 8, but then had to stop at a set of lights a few hundred meters further down the road, the group caught up whilst i was stationary and squeezed themselves between me and the kerb with barely room for their handlebars, the lights change and i wait for them to set off which they do, just as i’m about to start moving another group catch up and decide to also squeeze down the side, some people are just f**king stupid, if i hadn’t have been checking my mirrors i could have squashed the lot.

So are we saying that it’s still the truck drivers fault

no I was implying that the minimum standards the country has for HGVs in regards to their blind spots etc possibly aren’t up to the job if a driver can’t notice a car strapped to their bumper.

Donk are you stupid or just fail to understand that it is impossible to cover all blind spots on a truck

some people are just f**king stupid, if i hadn’t have been checking my mirrors i could have squashed the lot.

undoubtedly there are stupid people about but as this thread has shown some people (presumably drivers aswell as cyclists so regular road users) are ignorant of the size and location of the blind spots on HGVs. If you know about the blind spot and still go through then yes you are silly but if you dont….?

quick question, if whilst driving I don’t check my blind spot before overtaking or pulling out and hit something/someone would I be at fault or could I blame the car/bike that was in my blind spot? pretty sure I’d get most of the blame

Whilst a lot of cyclists endanger themselves by cycling up the inside of HGVs (and should have training) surely any HGV that is driven through built-up areas should be required to have additional mirrors/cameras to eliminate (or drastically reduce) the blind spots.

That’s really not the answer. You can have as many mirrors and sensors and cameras as you want but if the driver does a scan of all 12 mirrors and TV screens and while he’s scanning mirrors 10-12, someone rides up his inside through 1-3, they’re still not going to be seen.

I cycled through London earlier today during rush hour on a Boris Bike and f*** me, there was some idiotic riding going on.
Just YESTERDAY, someone died cos he rode up the inside of a bus so what do I see today? Folk squeezing up the inside of lorries, buses etc, sometimes with literally an inch of space between the bus to their right and a wall or railing to their left. If that vehicle started moving, they’d have stood no chance. The one saving grace is that there were so many cyclists (of all abilities) around that actually they were outnumbering the cars so in that respect there was safety in numbers. In fact at some junctions it looked like a Wacky Races version of the Tour de France, there were that many cyclists.

Education is the answer – both for traffic planners who put in these daft cycle lanes and for the cyclists themselves. And all drivers (regardless of vehicle) need the message ramming home that often (especially in stop start rush hour traffic) it’s safer and easier to just let the bike go and not try to overtake it – it’ll only catch you up 200m down the road again.

donk that truck does not have a mirror mounted above the windscreen meaning if the driver is sat back in his seat he may well not see the car straight away, the legisation regarding mirrors has changed now and all trucks built after 2008 i think, have to have one mounted above the windscreen, it used to be possible to stand about 25 people under an artic windscreen and not be able to see any of them from the drivers seat.

The drivers are not ignorant of their blind spots, they try to minimise the risks when they can as mentioned by izakimak but you can’t exclude all and hence why accidents happen

Donk are you stupid or just fail to understand that it is impossible to cover all blind spots on a truck

I’m not having a go at HGV drivers and I’m attempting not to be stupid (doesn’t always work mind) I’m questioning the suitability of very large vehicles with very large blind spots for use on public roads

BTW I guess I’ll add I used to occasionally ride up the inside of trucks, especially if there was a cycle lane, completely oblivious of the dangers, then I saw a video like the OP and promptly changed my behaviour and have been nervous of HGVs ever since.

I often see bikes going up the inside of HGVs/ Buses as I go around the outside and think ‘am I going to see you on the other side’?
Some people are just divs.

you can hang as many mirrors as you want off the doors of a truck to try to eliminate blindspots and what will actually happen is you will create more because the position the mirrors are put in will stop the drivers line of sight as he/she looks out of the window to see traffic approaching from the front/side at roundabouts. it is already an issue on some makes of truck due to the size/positioning of the mirrors.

If you can find a better way of moving large volumes of goods around without putting more vehicles on the road or increasing the cost of goods they’re delivering you or whoever finds the answer will be very rich.
Driving HGVs isn’t easy and the more crowded roads get the more stressful the job. Rather than slagging the job off an understanding of what’s involved might help

donk what is your solution then? 1 artic can deliver 28t of goods, if you put those goods in transit size vans that means about 20 vans with twenty drivers all going hell for leather to get tipped first and the roads will be even more congested.

so at the risk of putting yourself out of a job izakimak would you say HGV design needs a rethink?

Rather than slagging the job off an understanding of what’s involved might help

I was trying not to slag off the job or the drivers. Presumably if there’s a collision and the HGV is at fault then….
If the driver didn’t check his mirrors he’s at fault, if the driver did check his mirrors but they don’t cover everything then the owners are at fault for not fitting them. If the owners fitted all the mirrors and safety equipment legislated for and the driver checked them all and a collision still happens then the government is to blame for crap legislation? does that sound reasonable, I’m tired and not thinking straight.

donk what is your solution then?

dunno mate, better (much much better) minds than mine are supposed to be working on this sort of thing.

An example of a typical drivers conversation:

D1: were you going then?
D2: tossbury’s in Knobtown
D1: ha ha unlucky mate that’s a shit drop, nightmare getting in round the tight corner the car drivers wont stop to let you back in and when they do there’s always one who can’t wait a minute and tries to squeeze any possible gap available. The staff aren’t very helpful when it comes to stopping traffic cause thy have been told they are not allowed to cause of h&s.

I could go on

Donk, unfortunately trucks are a necessary evil. Everything you buy, use or sell, at some point moves about on a truck.

If a vehicle doesn’t meet the legislation then it is can’t be sold in this country. Most of the legislation regarding hgv’s is determined by brussels so eu wide anyway.

we could just move ALL the shops out of town, and board everything in town up 😉

Donk, unfortunately trucks are a necessary evil. Everything you buy, use or sell, at some point moves about on a truck.

I know hence me saying fix/sort them rather than saying ban them.

OK how about only using HGVs for motorways (maybe dual carriageways) and have distribution points at motorway junctions?

anyway I’m knackered after a busy day STWing I’m off to bed.

Most of the legislation regarding hgv’s is determined by brussels so eu wide anyway.

ah ok blame the bloody belgians then 🙂

Donk you still don’t get it. Accidents happen, you can’t eliminate all the blind spots, cyclist need to know this too.
If a truck is waiting at traffic lights indicating that it turning left then the cyclist should hold back or go to the right of the vehicle. If they continue down the left then the cyclist is at fault but since they wouldn’t have aware of the blindspot it would be seen as an accident
If a truck driver is approaching a junction where they want to turn left and they have cyclist in front of them the driver should hold back. If the driver overtakes the cyclist putting them into his blindspot then driver is at fault and will be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention.
I hope this helps you understand as it could save your life and everyone else that you pass this bit of knowledge onto

Whilst it may not be possible to eliminate the blind spot it is not impossible to improve the visibility hereby you can see that many cyclists at your side or notice a car stuck to your bumper.

Of course cyclist knowledge is great as well but it is not an either or scenario…why not do both?

FWIW I dont think he is advocating being in the blind spot or being unaware of it just simply asking/suggesting we should improve this by reducing it if possible

is it just me? but it’s pure common sense not to go anywhere near the inside of a lorry if you are on a bike. Just avoid or wait! one of the first things I learned instinctively from cycling in London was don’t go on the inside of anything big if it looks like it’s going to turn or something.and I’m daft on a bike.

There should be a national advert campaign – like the old green cross code ones, or the clunk-click every trip ones – based on that video to try to increase national awareness of the issue facing truck drivers.

I drove em for twenty years, driving one through London is fookin scary…
I’m surprised there isn’t multiple deaths every day tbh…Cyclists need awareness training as much as hgv drivers IMO…

They do,but the real answer to this problem is the awareness of the drivers. It’s 2012.. why the hell is a lorry fitted with multiple mirrors that don’t do their job? How can a vehicle be legal to drive if the driver can’t see someone straddling a motorcyclist/cyclist next to him? In a car there’s going to be a blind spot but at least its still possible to see someone straddling a bike around 5ft off the ground.

That’s shocking. Every cyclist should see that video.
After I learnt a few years ago that most cyclist deaths in London were left turning lorries I stay behind them, go nowhere near.
If they overtake me I keep a very close eye and ready to brake or get off the road

is it just me? but it’s pure common sense not to go anywhere near the inside of a lorry if you are on a bike. Just avoid or wait

I think that’s the only practical solution.
There’s absolutely no point in being 100% correct according to the highway code or the letter of the law when you’re as vulnerable as a cyclist in a busy urban environment.
Being perfect in everything you do won’t stop you getting crushed by a bus or a truck.

I genuinely can’t see a better solution to the problem than cyclists not going up the inside of large vehicles. It’s common sense, if it’s big and it might crush you on a corner, don’t go up the inside of it.

I’m not surprised to see those people next to the lorry and out of sight of the driver. If you can’t see the driver, then he can’t see you. But heres an idea. Shouldn’t those lorries now be fitted with a side view camera ?. A wide angle lens camera with a monitor in the cab. I’ve seen this for passenger cars with a display built into the dashboard, to show an image from a rear mounted camera.

But the clear issue is that with all the cameras, warning devices and alarms in the world, you’re still relying on someone else, who may well be concentrating on other things (lights, oncoming turning traffic, ped crossings, street names, dead prostitute in the back, etc. etc.) and like it or not, humans make mistakes, they miss things they could have or should have noticed. It would be nice if they didn’t, but they do.

Theres a simple action that we, as cyclists, can take to mitigate this risk and take control of the situation back into our own hands, by not putting ourselves in danger. It may not solve everything in one go, but its an effective, simple and failsafe method of reducing that risk.

But heres an idea. Shouldn’t those lorries now be fitted with a side view camera ?. A wide angle lens camera with a monitor in the cab.

As I said earlier (somewhere on page 2) that really isn’t the answer. If the driver is looking at a TV screen in the cab, he’s not looking at the road. If he takes his eyes off the screen to look at the road, a rider can easily pass unnoticed through the picture.

I have the utmost admiration for anyone driving long vehicles like that in cramped spaces. I’ve driven 4-ton trucks on airfields and delicate moves in that were tricky enough, I’d hate to try the same in a built up area!

Simple answer is DON’T GO UP THE INSIDE. The worry with lorries having all this extra safety gear is that riders will think “oh he’ll see me in his million mirrors, it’ll be fine”

You’d complain if a driver cut you up while you were turning. That’s effectively what cyclists do to long vehicles – cut them up and prevent them from doing their manoeuvre as they intend.

It may not solve everything

I wouldn’t suggest that a side mounted camera and a display in the cab would solve everything, its just an idea I had after viewing the video. But You are right, not having cyclists there in the first place would be better to start with. As injury and death happen when cyclists and motor vehicles come together, we should keep them apart. which I think has already been discussed, ie, cycle lanes, etc.

I still like the side view camera though. An HGV driver shouldn’t move off until he’s checked his mirrors and possibly a display in the cab, showing an area the mirrors can’t cover. Solving issues as complex as what happens in traffic and on our roads is likely to benefit from applying several ideas and solutions together.

EDIT:
Yes, I agree, better education of cyclists would help too.

Izakimak has already pointed out that’s it’s not a simply case of just adding more mirrors as this creates another blind spot where the mirror is so you wouldn’t spot the pedestrian stepping off the kerb becaause they are hidden behind a mirror.
Camera would be a good if the cyclist stayed still but crazy-legs pointed out they move about and the cyclist that was on camera 1 is now on camera 3 but by the time you’ve moved off another cyclist has moved onto 1 and it too late they’re under the wheels.
The mirrors are normally convexed at the edges to give a wider view, with articulated trucks the trailer and truck move at different angles so mirrors get blocked by the trailer itself. A rear pointing camera’s mounted on the front of the trailer may help hear but again do you want a driver looking at video screens or looking were they are driving.
As Kevev and Wisepranker said just don’t go down the left hand side of trucks. You can put as many mirrors and cameras on a truck as you want creating new blindspots and problems for other roadusers/pedestrians. Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too.
TurnerGuy has it the nail on the head with making more cyclist aware of the danger.

Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too

Thats sort of what I said in my first post. About if you can’t see the driver, then they can’t see you.

The video showed cyclists standing still at the side of the cab, out of the field of view of the mirrors just as you would see at a traffic light controlled junction or round about. I was depending on the driver having to check his mirrors and the display in the cab before moving off. I think one wide angle or fish eye lens camera could cover a wider field of view off the near side of the cab ?. And I was thinking just one camera, above the passenger door, looking down onto the exact blindspot shown in the video.

It was just an idea to supplement the other suggestions here and to contribute to what is probably several measures that could be considered to prevent this type of accident.