Ok then captain, I’ll give you an example. You’re walking past the BNP paper sale in the precinct of your local town, and because you’ve been recognised from ‘red watch’, one or two of the boneheads start seig healing and making monkey noises at your little boy. Debate or kick their knackers from under them?

Yossarian, I suppose my point here is that those giving “a good hiding” rather lose some of their argument against those that are “more interested in punching your lights out.”

I’d just rather see people rise above them, not sink to their thuggish, brutish, pathetic level of violence.

I think the debate doesnt even start. It’s far more animalistic than that. You want to bring fear and force to OUR streets? Have some back. Remember the school bully? Didn’t matter what you said. The only way to stop him hurting others was to kick the shit out of him. Same rules. I agree that it’s a base action, however it is I’m afraid the only currency the far right deal in or understand. Sad, but true.

Barnsleymitch, seriously?….that would cause you to become violent?

You need help.

Sticks and stones and all that.
A stranger calling me names, making rude signs and generally making an arse of themselves is easily ignored….and should be.
If when walking past said BNP members they get physical then a line has been crossed and they deserve to be on the recieving end of a good hiding but all the time its just words they can be easily laughed off/ignored/insulted back etc etc….

I abhor a lot of socialist/leftist type views but i wouldnt get punchy if i saw a group of them campaigning in my area.

Freedom of speech is absolute, if you cant handle the words some nasty big bullies spout then you really need some perspective.

A stranger calling me names, making rude signs and generally making an arse of themselves is easily ignored….and should be.

I’m just trying to imagine ignoring the type of situation that barnsleymitch describes if I had my 3 year old lad with me..

That would be pretty flipping wierd, and not very responsible parenting..

I’m not saying that I’d kick off, indeed I hope that I wouldn’t, our kids have been raised to be lovers not fighters (may they forgive me)..
I’m just imagining stopping to jovially and impartially observe and comment, to discuss the event as it happens, answer his questions – probably impossibly hard work but possibly good fun.. Imagine trying to remain a good calm father in the face of that aggression

Unless of course they got violent.. then suddenly it’s a massive shift, entering another dimension

Mind blowing stuff really

Deviant – please read my other posts on this thread, one of them may give you a little more information about the little lad in question. And thanks for the advice about needing help – I nearly laughed.

barnsleymitch, you turn to your little boy, and in a loud voice say “see, this is what happens when you don’t pay attention at school” 😀

I would have thought it fairly simple to say to your son that the men doing the noises, signs etc etc are idiots and should be treated with the utmost disdain….in language a 3 yr old would understand obviously.

I’ve long held the belief that people are their own worst enemy, rather than get on with their own lives, quietly influencing those around them (friends and family) in a positive way with their actions, people instead find it easier to spout off about their own views and try to talk round people who dont agree with them leading to more conflict.

I couldnt give a toss if somebody i dont know dislikes me or disagrees with my political leanings, i’ll get up again tomorrow and continue on my merry way like i do every day….why on earth would i want to enter into dialogue (or fisticuffs) with somebody whose views are so diametrically different to mine?….waste of time and energy, i’ll let other people blather on trying to shape the world according to their views.

Deviant – he has learning difficulties. For what it’s worth, I didn’t kick off, because I didn’t want him to see that. Sometimes though, discussion and debate is not enough. I no longer take an active part in anti fascist action, partly because I’m too old to be rolling about on the floor with some f***wit nazi meathead, but mainly because I would be struck off (I’m a registered nurse) if arrested for such shenanigans. However, I still think its right to take the fight to racists, it’s the only thing they understand.

Politics aside I love a laugh at those who see freedom as that which suits them only. Whilst not agreeing with those you preach against I reserve the right to abhor your intolerance of those who differ to yourselves. Language as used above is as uncivilized as that preached by the BNP etc. As are your actions. Behave like them equals them. 😆

Much more effective is to marginalise them and humiliate them by pointing out their minority views and lack of real support….fight them and you give them a cause, if society in general ignores these groups and moves on then they start to look like the sad little organisations they are….and who really wants to be a member of a group viewed like that?….pitied by society even.

You know what – I’m proud to be abhored for being anti fascist.

If a bunch of racist, drunken, thugs spill out of a pub and shout racist abuse at anyone, then that is a crime. Punishable by the law. If they assault someone, then that is also a crime. If I was in the situation of witnessing this, I’d like to think I would do something.

This has nothing to do with getting ‘physical’ with someone over their views alone. That is sinking to their level. I reckon I could hold my own in a debate with anyone from the edl or bnp, seeing as they’re mostly half-wits, but they are not worth debating. They are not worth taking any notice of at all, in fact.

We get bnp leaflets at local election time. Free kindling for the fire. At least they’re useful for something.

Yossarian, I suppose my point here is that those giving “a good hiding” rather lose some of their argument against those that are “more interested in punching your lights out.”

I’d just rather see people rise above them, not sink to their thuggish, brutish, pathetic level of violence.
Everyone would Flashy Everyone would rather not need to ever fight, go to war, raise their voice etc but that does not mean that it will happen

I think yoss and the school bully who only respond to violence rather hits the nail on the head – do you really think you can beat the EDL or the BNP with logic and the force of your argument – REALLY – I will pay to see you try.

if society in general ignores these groups and moves on then they start to look like the sad little organisations they are

for the triumph of evil all that is necessary is that good people do nothing

I think the best way to have a go at these morons, as with most things, is to mercilessly parody and piss-take them! Like tha Muslamic-rayguns thing, that was spot on. totally made them look like the imbecilic, mindless dicks that they are. haha – look! everyone on the internet is laughing at you! That’s the great thing about the internet, it is very democratic, just got to film these tits on your phone, stick it on Youtube and title it fascist-dimwits or sommat, and word soon spreads.

To all the people talking about freedom of speech and ‘it’s better to just ignore them’, I’ll throw in a couple of names you may remember, both who had known links to British far right groups. David Copeland, and Anders Breivik. I think, on the whole, that ignoring them was a bit of a mistake, to be honest.

RE Copeland and Breivik
So your saying both should have been arrested prior to their crimes by some sort of ‘thought’ police, possibly then have to spend some time in ‘re-education camps’ to ensure that they became model citizens?
I dont mean to make light of their actions but I dont understand how you can prevent these type of crimes without indiscriminately arresting and holding people for crimes they have yet to, or may possibly never commit.
There have been enough people wrongly convicted of crimes they have not done (but the crimes have occurred) based on their religion, beliefs or even skin color.

People have a right to their opinion and can express them as the law allows, when they break the law they then will get dealt with as the law sees fit. If the law is unable to reflect the will of the people then it can be changed in our democratic society to reflect the wishes of the majority.
When we start to label people criminal for their beliefs, which they hold within the law, and start to act outside the law to counter these we start to go down a very slippery road.

I think the English Disco Lovers campaign hits the right note, anyway these far right nutters should be exposed to the sunlight where there ideology can be seen by all for what it is, let them march.

Just my two cents worth.

Steady on there with Breivek/Copeland comments. What did you have in mind for these sort of people who have views you don’t like. If no crime has yet been committed what are we going to do with them, intern them in special camps because they were caught saying unacceptable things. Who will decide what is unacceptable? Will it apply to all sections of the community? For a reasonabley free society (yes I know it’s not perfect) we have to tolerate stuff we don’t agree with, that’s the price we pay. Internment camps have been tried before, the IRA found them extremely helpful for recruitment. House arrest for years? Sent prison? Held on remand with threats of deportation? We are doing all these things to people now who have views deemed to be incompatible with our society. Is it making any differences? Don’t know but it sure makes me uncomfortable that it can happen in our country.
If any of the (extremist) groups or individuals break the law it should be used against them fully as a challenge to their behaviour but not until then. There are many instances in this country where law breaking goes unchallenged until its to late and we have a serious problem. We can teach tolerance and the values that we would collectively expect, we can even lead by example but there will also be a spectrum of nutters to get along with.

I’d like to think I’m in the spectrum of nutters but at the sort of soft cuddly end 🙂

I think the English Disco Lovers campaign hits the right note, anyway these far right nutters should be exposed to the sunlight where there ideology can be seen by all for what it is, let them march.

Do you really think that this lot:

give two shits about a mildly amusing, middle class internet ‘campaign’?

They are much more visceral than that. If you don’t want them on your streets or in your pubs then they need to be faced down and kicked out.

No, of course I don’t believe that these people should have been arrested by the ‘thought police’ prior to committing their crimes, due in no small part to this being the real world and not ‘minority report’. What I’m trying to point out is that by ignoring any extremist groups, we risk situations developing such as the actions of Copeland and Breivik. They didn’t develop their ideologies without encouragement from others, despite the denials from the leaders of the BNP, etc.
It’s no different, in my opinion, from the Islamic elders encouraging young lads to take up jihad, so where do you draw the line? I just find it difficult to get my head round the ‘ignore them and they’ll go away’ thing – not all members of these groups are stupid, by a long chalk. Yes, some, probably most, are in it for the violence and the buzz, and don’t think further than that, but please remember, they are often led and encouraged by people with a much more sinister agenda. Any group that advocates a race war and denies the holocaust took place should be watched closely, and Ignoring this doesnt make it go away. Sorry if I’m sounding a bit ranty and alarmist, by the way.

Funny how all the closet right wingers get all tetchy about defending the bone heads, reality is they are the street thugs who do the stuff the respectable right does not dare in times of peace–but as history shows , that can change very quickly in times of upheaval.

Easy to see how those on the right will accept racism, hatred and fear as weapons in their ‘crusade’ against tolerance, openness, and love.

Fascism must be confronted, it has no place in progressive society, but as its always the last refuge of the ruling class, it won’t be going away while they exist.

Wow, rudebwoy, that is quite a jump you are making there. There seems to be a general, if not absolute,(negative) consensus about the likes of the EDL and the BNP on here. The difference appears to be on what is the best way to deal with people like that. I do not see this as a party issue per se, but slightly ironical that some who have left wing sympathies appear to be more willing to resort to (1) descending to the level of the EDL and the BNP, (2) including violence in some cases and (3) rejecting the basic idea of freedom of speech/expression.

I think what history has shown is that extremism, be in left or right wing, religious, social etc is the dangerous thing. Each is often associated with a clamp down on freedom of expression etc. Fortunately we live in a society, for all it’s faults, that is mature and liberal enough to rise above that. As I said before, we have a great tradition of freedom of speech protected by the rule of law when people abuse that freedom. That is far more admirably than some of the other suggestions made here and elsewhere IMO.

But I do love JY’s (sorry, not a dig JY) opening line regarding tolerance of anything other than the intolerant. In itself that statement is a great example of a paradox like, “All Cretans are liers,” said the Cretan.

Fighting in the streets with ex football hooligans..

mmmm; not sure you have thought this one through.

Out of interest, if we take those guys in the photo who Yossarian wants to kick out, where would we kick them too? Do you think they should be allowed to vote? What (legal or other) criteria would we use to kick them out and how would it differ from other extreme people?

I don’t know THM, I’ve already outlined my (apparently abhorrent) views on fascism, and I suppose when starting this thread, I was expecting alternative views. My concern is that far right groups in the uk are not seen as the serious threat that they are. Fair enough, the English disco lovers thing is quite funny, and groups like rock against racism, etc, are and were well meant, but did they, or will they, ever make a difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbsM2HXuEH0

BM, to be clear I am not criticising a rejection of fascism or racism, just questioning the best way of dealing with it. I do not agree that we do not take such extreme views seriously. We have very specific laws dealing with hate speech and severe punishment for those who break them (including prison). So there is no free-for-all when it comes to spouting extreme, racist views. The sanctions are clear IMO and the best way forward.

Re the final question, I think the law makes the difference and achieves a sensible balance between potentially conflicting objectives.

I am starting to develop an alternative plan. The main thrust of it is for THM to face them down, and patronise them into submission! 😉

Sorry, but I don’t believe that the law is always used effectively with regards to fascism. Nick Griffin, for instance, is a euro mp and elected politician. Try googling nick griffin / holocaust denial. Not seen it for a while, but there certainly has been video evidence posted on line of his involvement in this. Another example is the situation I described earlier in the thread regarding BNP members seig heiling – although I didn’t (physically) kick off, I did swear at the one closest to me. Police that were present informed me that I was on ‘thin ice’ for this, but chose to ignore the fascist chanting, etc.

Nice comment MSP 😯

Surely BM, then the law needs enforcing correctly? But that is very different from rejecting the right of those we don’t agree with from being able to express their views freely (again within legal boundaries).

Griffen makes plenty of outrageous and indefensible claims. And how do we know? Because he can be heard and it’s easy to reject his views. Like most extremists, his/their views are pretty easy to discredit without the need for violence. I would prefer to let them dig their own holes out of their own mouths than live in a society that censors opinions of others. After all that is what makes STW fun (in the chat forum)!

This probably isn’t going to go down well here but I’ll post it anyway

I think it’s fair to say that the majority of supporters for the far right tend to be…..academically challenged. A girl I went to school with proudly states on her FB profile that she supports them and she was the one expelled for beating other students up/drinking/fighting and never took her GCSE’s. She now lives on benefits (oh the horror) with 5 kids and a husband who is currently residing at her majesty’s pleasure. She’s not what you’d state a model citizen.

Every single person I’ve ever met with racist/fascist tendencies tends to be someone I’d not want to spend any time with. That’s not to say I’m some amazingly intelligent individual – I’m not. But those that state they’re right wing because they hate *insert standard racist phrase* also normally tend not to have much else to say. In other words they’re stupid. They are also the ones that usually do a lot of fighting, drink lots and just generally be unpleasant.

What doesn’t help matters are the tabloid press, fuelling the hatred with ‘facts’ that simply whip up a frenzy for those too stupid to see past the ‘asian man burns poppies/hate crime/living on benefits and has a hook for a hand’. I remember when the protesters went to Wooton Bassett and my Daily Mail reading relatives were livid about ‘the Asians protesting’. Suddenly all Asians are as bad as each other and not to be trusted, as a direct result of the rubbish churned out by a paper with its roots based in fascism. It’s this type of reaction that leads to the BNP being voted in and gaining support.

Long term people need to be educated about interaction between races and filth such as the DM need to be banned, or seriously policed.

From rudebwoy:

Funny how all the closet right wingers get all tetchy about defending the bone heads, reality is they are the street thugs who do the stuff the respectable right does not dare in times of peace–but as history shows , that can change very quickly in times of upheaval.

What do you suggest then? Mass arrests on the basis of political views? Actually that would fit in quite well with your political heros.

Easy to see how those on the right will accept racism, hatred and fear as weapons in their ‘crusade’ against tolerance, openness, and love.

No it isn’t. That’s just trite nonsense. Whether your are on the left or the right, these are more to do with individual standards. Didn’t the dockers’ union march in support of Enoch Powell after the ‘rivers of blood’ speech by the same token? It seems narrow-mindedness in self-interest transcends the political spectrum.

Fascism must be confronted, it has no place in progressive society, but as its always the last refuge of the ruling class, it won’t be going away while they exist.

It must be confronted if it is in danger of actually doing something or influencing policies. Otherwise it is just a bunch of people saying nasty things.

By the way, the real quote is ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’. I assume you knew you were paraphrasing?

I do wonder if people really have any form of idealogy when then get into this rubbish or if they just like the boots.

At least if they’re fighting they’re getting some exercise.

Left Versus Right – it’s so over – move on – find a new show.

Rusty – I don’t answer to you or anyone else on the internet, let alone this forum/thread so you won’t be getting a break-down, not for now anyway.

If that irritates you then good. 😀

Now carry on with your head up your backside, whinging about the bnp/nf/whatever-else group that irritates you cos that’s the REAL way to make a difference isn’t it…Confront them on an MTB website. 😆

why post stuff like that patriot pro? It is rather childish and you seem to be rather proud of yourself for a blatant attempt to irritate someone

It paints an excellent picture of you as person tbh as does your racially/nationality motivated shopping practices

PS I dont blame you for speaking in tongues about your apparent view given what would happen were you more explicit…even you know it wont be tolerated and that is the bit worth smiling about

Some of you violent anti fascists really do read like a totalitarians. Remember please that we all seem to have a similar views on what are un acceptable views, we just disagree on how to treat them. They are winning when we argue with each other.

The point on in forcing the law is very valid. All those that try to dictate with law breaking how we should act and think must answer to plod. To often the police let things go when good existing law could be used to curb the activities of extremists (or anyone else for that matter).

Again I repeat that the price of reasonable free democratic country is that we have tolerate extremist views. Let them speak so we know who they are. The alternative is to force it under ground where it could become much more dangerous.

I have yet to see any of you willing to take up the mantle and go to one of their meetings and sepak out against them to see how much they respect your right to free speech.
It is certainly a tad contradictory a position though to be arguing direct action against them though but it is caused by their actions/modus operandi.
What you propse it is like asking a bully to stop hitting you and stealing from you by doing a nice pamphlet to appeal to their better nature..it is pointless hence why no one wants to turn up at a EDL meeting or BNP and speak as liberal to them.
I do agree you can be too confrontational with them but if you think the far right will listen to appeals about human rights and respect you are deluded.