Rather than add to some of the comments posted on the ‘happy st George’s day’ thread, I think it’s worth discussing how people feel about neo Nazi organisations such as the bnp and edl. In the late 80’s and early 90’s, I was involved in anti fascist groups, occasionally in a quite, how can I put this, fairly robust and direct manner. Back then, our actions were fairly regularly commented on as being no better than those of the right wing groups we were protesting against. My opinion was, and still is, to be honest, that your average Nazi isn’t going to be troubled in the slightest by newspaper sales or t-shirt / leafletting campaigns.

Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just those you agree with.

Their chief weapon is intimidation…intimidation and fear…fear and intimidation…. their two weapons are fear and intimidation…and bully boy tactics…. their *three* weapons are fear, intimidation, and bully boy tactics…and an almost fanatical devotion to boots with lots of lace holes…. their *their*…no… *Amongst* their weapons…. Amongst their weaponry…are such elements as fear, intimidation…. I’ll come in again.

Truth is they have to be shown that the majority are not going to be pushed around by their vile hatred. Its a great shame that many politicians take on a “hatred lite” version of that message to try and appease the fears they create instead of standing up to them.

tolerance of all but the intolerant is my motto and free speech is fine but they have a long record of insightment and criminals within their organisation – EDL guy is a convicted football hpooligamn , beat his partner and is noe in a US prison so it is also more than his ideas he actually does nasty things as no dount do his followers
You cannot beat fascism with some tutting or a well worded pamphlet
Direct action is needed against this sort IMHO /IME
It a littl like pacifisim
I subsbcribe to it but would have take up arms against Hitler but not any other war in the last century as sometimes you have to fight even thopugh you would rather not.

tolerance of all but the intolerant is my motto

100%

The BNP and the EDL are, and I’ll be as polite as possible, fascist scum.

They don’t want to talk or debate. They prey on people’s fears and are only ever a step away from violence. Fortunately there are a number of direct and shall we say more indirect groups arrayed against them.

Good on you barnsleymitch, I did a little work with the ANL about 15 years back. Good bunch of people, proving once more that state intervention is no substitute for public action.

What patriotpro said.

One of my (many) problems with the far right is that it’s not just about freedom of speech. You speak out against them,turn up at a protest or whatever, and there’s a very good chance you’ll get a kicking. Another favourite tactic is for them to take a photograph of you and post it on a charming website called redwatch. At one time, these photographs would have been accompanied by text suggesting you should attack these people if you knew them or knew where they lived, etc, though this practice appears to have fallen by the wayside over the past few years.

If you go far enough to the right and far enough to the left don’t you meet? Both types of regime use fear and intimidation to controll any disent.

Another favourite tactic is for them to take a photograph of you and post it on a charming website called redwatch. At one time, these photographs would have been accompanied by text suggesting you should attack these people if you knew them or knew where they lived, etc,

Much like the animal rights muppets then?

Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just those you agree with.

Agreed. “Direct action” can just drag you down to the level of the knuckle draggers themselves. Odious, spiteful, hateful little shits that they are.

Can I politely suggest you go to one of their meetings and speak out aginst them publicly at it.
Let me know how the freedom of speech argument went
Good luck Flashy 😉
Unfortunately it is like asking politely for someone to stop hitting you whilst they are hitting you ..it will achieve nothing and sometimes you need to respond even though it is not what you would prefer to do and it is never “right”

Again they dont listen to a good talking to.

Agreed. “Direct action” can just drag you down to the level of the knuckle draggers themselves. Odious, spiteful, hateful little shits that they are.

I can’t help but feel that if you use violence, then you legitimise “their” struggle. So would agree with the above. Extreme animal rights / vegetarianism is another facet of this aggressive lifestyle choice. I guess it depends on what fascist is defined as – it is another name for racism/ extreme nationalism, or is it stopping anyone having the right to a different opinion by intimidation/violence/genocide?

Extreme animal rights / vegetarianism is another facet of this aggressive lifestyle choice

Please don’t drag vegetablists in to this. They may have a totally batshitmental and wrong odd diet choice, but they are not to be tarred with that brush.

Protest against the Far left, right up, down, in fact protest against anyone that tries to force there view of the world on people by using the threat of or actual violence. However you should always let their voice be heard, even if it’s vile crap. Mostly they (especially the BNP) undermine there own arguments once there views get past easy sound bites. Freedom to speak and report on all matters is much more important than we realise sometimes and is not as available to us we think. Things like Leveson are going make this situation worse. As I recall there have been a number of very successful and very peaceful examples of how to change views and whole societies. Screaming at people and thwacking them does not change opinion. Sorry to be a bore.

Extreme animal rights / vegetarianism is another facet of this aggressive lifestyle choice

Please don’t drag vegetablists in to this. They may have a totally batshitmental and wrong odd diet choice, but they are not to be tarred with that brush.

At the back end of the eighties, there were bombing of MaccyDees. Surely bombing restaurants because they don’t suit a lifestyle eating choice, or threating members of the public , is more than just batshit mental.

criminals within their organisation – EDL guy is a convicted football hpooligamn , beat his partner and is noe in a US prison

On that basis, The Lib Dems are perverters of justice (Chris Huhne).

I tend to think that the “counter-demonstrations” and other such responses just give these knuckleheads the oxygen of publicity, and if we all ignore them they will, to a large extent, go away.

EDIT: By “these knuckleheads”, I meant EDL and the like, not the Liberal Democrats!

mrmoofoo, I agree, but I don’t see those actions as being those of vegetarians. As above, they may mess out on all that meaty goodness, but they’re not terrorists.

There’s a difference.

There is a middle way. When 50-75 members of the Scottish defense league( defending our simple diet and lofty position on the heart disease league table) marched in Dundee, we had a huge party in the city square,approx 500 people all singing and dancing and best of all eating free cake. They quite got into a huff about nobody taking them seriously.

What’s wrong with Margate?

I was involved in anti fascist groups, occasionally in a quite, how can I put this, fairly robust and direct manner. Back then, our actions were fairly regularly commented on as being no better than those of the right wing groups we were protesting against.

That, in my book, makes you no better than the thugs on the other side who share an equally “robust” attitude against the liberties that all good people hold dear. A possible difference is that the thugs on the other side don’t generally try to take the moral high ground regarding their thuggery.

but they have a long record of insightment and criminals

So the none of the leftist thugs have any criminal convictions then ? 🙄

“My opinion was, and still is, to be honest, that your average Commie isn’t going to be troubled in the slightest by newspaper sales or t-shirt / leafletting campaigns.

I’m still struggling with the concept of free speech when it’s used by any group to encourage hatred or promote violence towards others. The irony isn’t lost on me that I’ve personally used violence against fascists in the past, and had it used against me, but I fail to see any other course of action in dealing with neo nazis. I suppose that makes me just another knuckle dragger then…

On that basis, The Lib Dems are perverters of justice (Chris Huhne).

I fail to see the similarity between what one lib dem did and the background of thr person who set up, leads and heads the EDL

I suppose it is possible the organisation is nothing like him and is nothing like his views but why would he set it up then if it was not like him. I would need to se elots of examples of them not being violent and speaking out aginst violence but that is also clearly not the case.
It is nothing like the lib dems and it is daft to suggest it is.

I’m still struggling with the concept of free speech

It really isn’t hard – people are allowed to hold views contrary to your own without you doling out a kicking to them.

Cranberry, Is that Pinochet? are you trying to suggest he is a left winger?

That, in my book, makes you no better than the thugs on the other side who share an equally “robust” attitude against the liberties that all good people hold dear. A possible difference is that the thugs on the other side don’t generally try to take the moral high ground regarding their thuggery.

that is mainly because they have no high ground to maintain
What did our troops do in the war but engage in thuggery against Nazis to protect our way of life etc. what are our brave troops doing in foreign lands today ? We could argue about when it is ok to do this but we probably would all do it at soem point.
Again it is not good but it is sometimes necessary as tutting and appealing to their good nature to not give you a kicking and to respect yout liberties is most unlikely to work – go on give it a try 🙄
What do you think would happen if the police let the EDL march through a Muslim area – they would break no laws and just peacfully protest ?

Maybe the authorities should take as close a look at the activities of the far right as they do when infiltrating other direct action/campaign groups. By some of the anecdotal accounts it shouldn’t be too hard to find criminal activity and punish it accordingly through the rule of law.

What do you think would happen if the police let the EDL march through a Muslim area – they would break no laws and just peacfully protest ?

Wasn’t the EDL formed in reaction to ‘police letting’ a muslim group protest in front of troops arriving home?

So they did exactly what your advocating. It’s a circular argument.

Ok then cranberry, I’ll try and simplify it, and perhaps take responsibility for my own actions. I don’t like bullies, and to me, that’s a big part of what fascists are. Also, I take a lot of their beliefs personally. My eldest son is gay, and my youngest son has learning difficulties. Now forgive me if I’m wrong, but neither of these attributes would earn a ‘like’ on facebook from your average fascist. These are not reasonable people, and I have first hand experience of their unwillingness to enter into reasonable debate.

Cranberry, Is that Pinochet? are you trying to suggest he is a left winger?

I changed one word of something that the OP said, in the hope that he might have a think about the use of violence in place of politics, and the company that he keeps.

Wasn’t the EDL formed in reaction to ‘police letting’ a muslim group protest in front of troops arriving home?

They are just football hooligans driven out of football by improvements in security and policing, looking for an excuse to be hooligans elsewhere.

Still not sure what your point is Cranberry?

I fail to see the similarity between what one lib dem did and the background of thr person who set up, leads and heads the EDL

Chris Huhne was very nearly the leader of the Lib Dems, and was, when he nearly became leader, a perverter of justice (we just didn’t know about it at the time). I think, therefore, that there is an obvious similarity with criticising a group of people as criminals when the justification seems to be that one of their leaders is. To be honest, I thought the parallel was obvious enough that it didn’t need to be spelt out in massive detail.

They are just football hooligans driven out of football by improvements in security and policing, looking for an excuse to be hooligans elsewhere.

Well, yes. And the group protesting against the troops coming home were the same with beards.

Forty years ago my mum was arrested for throwing a tin of red paint over the leader of the local NF when they marched down Market street in Hyde town center 😀
Not really reverent to the thread but every time I hear the NF mentioned it reminds me of that and makes me smile..
RIP mum…

The favourate trick of the NF when I was a kid was to drive round in a van and give anyone they didn’t like the look of a good kicking.. Free speech my arse. They want it, but nobody else..
But I’ve noted over the years that the typical NF member is either a manipulative tosser or a gert thick knob…

I’d give your mam a ‘like’ for that khani!

Well if chris huhne was a convicted violent criminal and he had set up the Lib Dems and been convicted since then you would have made a grea point. As it is nothing like this then you have made a weak point i did not realise this needed spelling out in such detail

they are so unalike it is a ridiculous comparison to make

Is there a long tradition of this in the Lib dems from the person who set them up throughput the orgainsation

it really is not the same at all and by a HUGE distance.
if you cannot see this then I suggest we leave it here as I am struggling to see why anyone would even think that let alone argue it it in that style.

Aye Barnsley. learning difficulties … I thought that was one of the qualifications to be a member of the NF/BNP :-).

You don’t like bullies. There are many different bullies so why just pick on the bullies with different views to you?

Given where you live can you not copy Ian McMillian read your own poetry until they admit defeat.

Wasn’t the EDL formed in reaction to ‘police letting’ a muslim group protest in front of troops arriving home?

Which I thought, and this might be a little unpopular, was quite a restrained and dignified gesture by the Muslim community at that time..

At one point it looked very much like ‘the West’ was on a bit of a crusade in Muslim areas of the world..
If I was an ex-pat, or a member of a minority group living abroad, and the country that I lived in seemed to be the aggressor in a number of military campaigns against my home country, staging a peaceful protest would be a very tame way of showing my feelings on the subject..

And, the football hooligan comment above may seem flippant, but it was exactly how the EDL came about if I remember correctly..

Right wing football hooligans offering muscle to go and sort out the disrespectful fahkin’ rag ‘eads..
I remember the team crests being added one by one and proudly displayed on the EDL facebook page as each team’s thugs proudly stepped forward and pledged their allegiance

Mt – funnily enough, he lives in the same village as me! Now if I was to ‘force read’ his poetry to fascists, I’d happily be accused of being no better than them.

Junkyard, the point you are deliberately missing is that an organisation is more than the views / nasty history of one person.

Just as I’m sure most who voted for Huhne to be leader of the LibDems (and indeed the constituents who elected him to parliament) didn’t know he was a criminal, likewise it was not initially well known about the background of the EDL guy. In both cases, the facts came out after they had already established themselves. The fact that he is a nasty person does not make all EDL supporters so, just as Huhne’s trangressions don’t for LibDem supporters.

Surely there’s enough primary evidence to condemn most EDL activists on, without having to resort to guilt by association? Of all the arguments I’ve heard against the EDL, that is by far the weakest.

Still not sure what your point is Cranberry?

For clarity: The picture and the quote below it go together ( the forum software makes it hard to separate posts out into 2 sections as it deletes empty lines ). Pinnochet was someone well known for being somewhat “robust” against those who had a differing political stance. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I’d posted a picture of an EDL nutter with a speach bubble with a subtle twist on BarnsleyMitch’s words “My opinion was, and still is, to be honest, that your average /Commie/Muslim/immigrant/someone not like me/ isn’t going to be troubled in the slightest by newspaper sales or t-shirt / leafletting campaigns”

Now forgive me if I’m wrong, but neither of these attributes would earn a ‘like’ on facebook from your average fascist.

Of course the vast majority of people find their beliefs and actions abhorrent, and I like the English Disco Lovers and their plan to have a bit of fun taking the piss and the top spot on Google from the other EDL, but without spinning this out more than it perhaps should be, I cannot agree with thuggery in place of democracy in a free country from either side of the political spectrum.