Prosecutions after the troubles in NI

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  • Prosecutions after the troubles in NI
  • athgray
    Member

    Watching the BBC series on the troubles on BBC. An episode on the cover war talks about events I knew nothing. A British paid informer in the IRA called ‘stakeknife’ widely regarded to be a man named Freddie Scappaticci. I have heard about possible prosecutions of soldiers, and dobt know where I stand on this with regard to decisions in what could be the heat of battle, however stakeknife seemed to be allowed to operate well beyond the moral and legal boundaries. I can understand how families of stakeknife victims would clearly want some kind of justice for those lost.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/02/what-is-the-stakeknife-scandal-and-what-happens-next

    Premier Icon kilo
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    Not just a matter pertaining to history – Third direction matters still ongoing at the moment relating to CHIS participation in crime

    mrmo
    Member

    might be worth looking up the Monaghan bombings, the British state was complicit in a lot of stuff that happened. Should there be prosecutions, I am not sure, what really matters is that there is the truth comes out. If getting the truth means an amnesty then so be it.

    Re Soldier F if you lie and lie and repeatedly lie, even when offered a way out, then you can rot as far as I am concerned.

    I’ve been watching that series too OP, it’s very well done, but certainly makes me feel even less proud to be British than usual…

    athgray
    Member

    I’ve been watching that series too OP, it’s very well done, but certainly makes me feel even less proud to be British than usual…

    Exactly. The civil rights movement in NI is never taught in schools for example. I think we are quick to learn about civil rights in The US for as we can have a sense of self righteousness about it, but we do not learn about important conflict and arguments much closer to home. Whatever opinion we take on issues such as this, it would surely be better achieved by being armed with knowledge.

    Premier Icon sv
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    Indeed civil rights were being fought for in the beginning by both sides of the religious divide, until they were hijacked.

    tjagain
    Member

    I would have liked to see a truth and reconciliation commission along the lines of the south African one for NI

    There is no doubt at all that the british state did some pretty awful stuff where the truth has not really come out

    Premier Icon kilo
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    Have a look at No Stone Unturned for more state collusion to kill catholic’s

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
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    I’m with TJ, always surprised me that we didn’t learn from the South African experience with truth and reconciliation. Probably too far past the time to try it now

    Premier Icon timbog160
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    I thought it was a very well made and even handed series. I think, on balance, it probably cements my view that, except in the most exceptional circumstances, there should not be prosecutions.

    I think the truth and reconciliation idea would not work in NI as it remains a divided society, with too many vested interests. Look at the Boston tapes project, which has now been widely discredited – there are simply too many people with their own agendas for anything to be reliable.

    tails
    Member

    It’s a very good program especially as I know very little on the subject. If ever there was a reason to block brexit that’s it. Incredible how disloyal the people at the top are to their side. I was also surprised how most of the ROI aren’t really interested much like many British.

    Their in a good place over there now, I see no reason for further prosecutions. It’s either all or none and none keeps the peace better.

    It’s funny how people who hate each other are so similar.

    Premier Icon seadog101
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    I really don’t understand how people seem to think that because the UK armed forces were operating against bad people, then they should be excused if they did bad things themselves.

    A very glib answer, and I fully understand that the soldiers on the ground were often operating at the very limits of the RoE, under great stress, and sometimes terrified for their own safety. However, when crimes have been committed they should be prosecuted.

    We should be be brave enough to hold our heads up and say that our armed forces are the finest in the world. If they fell below our expected standards they should be held to account.

    In normal circumstances, I’d 100% agree, but in this particular can of bitter, twisted worms, what good would it do?.

    There would be a massive reaction from the loyalists, a call for balance and prosecutions on the republican side, and a possible escalation.

    The para laughing and smiling about getting to shoot his gun is just horrific. I hope he’s still around to squirm at that.

    @seadog101 – the rest if the UK has always acted rather detached from NI. If the army carried out a small fraction of what it did in NI to somewhere like Yorkshire, justice would be a given.

    NI should be a cautious tale to the rest if the UK. Shake up the establishment a little too much and you become fair game.

    control67
    Member

    I come from a staunchly republican, catholic family from the North of Ireland. A large part of my family were/are from Aughnacloy, a small town in County Tyrone with a checkpoint on the toad in from the south.

    I remember visiting there as a child during the troubles and waiting at the checkpoint, having guns pointed at the car while they checked us over. Armed patrols walking through an otherwise peaceful little town.

    Then this happened, Aidan was a friend of the family, a young man killed by -at best- a negligent discharge, at worst a deliberate shot. An active Sinn Fein supporter, he had been threatened repeatedly by the occupying forces. It took 30 years to come to court and a judgement on the charge of manslaughter is expected this month.

    I fully support the prosecution of military personnel who have abused their position and power to cause harm to civilians while occupying their country.

    Fair point tbh.

    while occupying their country

    Nice use of divisive and factually incorrect language.

    Just for clarity, Aughnacloy is in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom.

    I fully agree that members of the British military should be held to account for criminal actions, but so to should members of of the Republican and Loyalist communities, who were given quite literal ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ cards under the GFA.

    Unfortunately, as long as one ‘side’ continues to be chased for prosecutions whilst others get off scott-free, and individuals such as yourself continue to use the language of hatred, divisions will continue to fester in Northen Ireland.

    Pigface
    Member

    For me the really sad bit about the troubles is that the police and army knew who all the bad guys were. As a friend who was based in Hereford told me, could of stopped it in a week but they kept it going. They being the British government.

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    As a friend who was based in Hereford told me, could of stopped it in a week but they kept it going.

    Oh and how would they have stopped it?
    Unless you are going to the extreme kill everyone considered suspicious then its unlikely to solve things.
    Even in that case you really would have to be brutal and be capable of handling all the bad press especially awkward with the yanks. You then have to keep repeating when the blood feuds kick off.
    Short of that random jailings and interment was proved not to work that well.

    Premier Icon kilo
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    Unfortunately, as long as one ‘side’ continues to be chased for prosecutions whilst others get off scott-free,

    Not particularly accurate summary but par for the course when discussing how the army should get a free pass. John Downey recently charged for a 1972 IRA bombing trial just finished over the McConville murder in 1972, kinda derails that narrative.

    As a friend who was based in Hereford told me, could of stopped it in a week but they kept it going.

    Oh that’s that sorted then, pigfaces mate knew all the answers. 😂

    tjagain
    Member

    They tried internment ie locking up the known people without due process. that really helped

    Premier Icon finishthat
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    What the series highlighted well I think is the fact that negotiations were going on from the early
    70`s between the Government and the IRA + others , that they were in good faith , and that everybody knew who was involved in everything , and that that was part of the game , and precisely why bopping off the known players would spark a proper and terrible civil war with no chance of peace for anybody.

    …but par for the course when discussing how the army should get a free pass

    Putting words into other people’s mouths seems to be par for the course too.

    Did I stutter? Did I say the Army should get a free pass?

    I fully agree that members of the British military should be held to account for criminal actions,

    Just how did you manage to read “held to account for criminal actions” as “the Army should get a free pass”?

    If you struggle with a basics of English then perhaps you should address that first, leaving the adult conversations to people with a more firm grasp of the language.

    mrmo
    Member

    For me the really sad bit about the troubles is that the police and army knew who all the bad guys were. As a friend who was based in Hereford told me, could of stopped it in a week but they kept it going. They being the British government.

    And as a friend who was a para in NI said, the SAS were a bunch of idiots who thought no one would guess that the blokes manning check points weren’t squaddies and were surprised when provo’s didn’t turn up.

    Premier Icon kilo
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    If you struggle with a basics of English then perhaps you should address that first, leaving the adult conversations to people with a more firm grasp of the language.

    There was a thread on this subject a month or so ago, constant reiteration of one side being let off without actually dealing with the reality of the agreements, just fire out the canard, much like here it seems. No plans to deal with my point that historic terrorist crimes are still investigated then?

    No plans to explain how you managed to read “held to account for criminal actions” as “the Army should get a free pass” then?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    sootyandjim

    Member

    …while occupying their country

    Nice use of divisive and factually incorrect language.

    Just for clarity, Aughnacloy is in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom.

    Not divisive or inaccurate at all. Aidan McAnespie was born and bred in Aughnacloy, it was his country no matter whether you think it should be British or Irish or Vietnamese. And it was undeniably occupied. Nothing controversial or inaccurate there no matter how you’d like to spin it

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    looks like sooty is out for a fight!

    Premier Icon donncha
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    Please google the Glenanne gang or the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

    For example:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenanne_gang

    Please google how many security forces have ever been prosecuted for crimes committed in NI.

    While terrorist groups (and Ireland) agreed to a peace & reconciliation process the British government refused to be part of any process that may mean it was seen a partisan force.

    Aye, I’d imagine if I had control67’s experiences and someone called me divisive, it would nip a bit.

    Premier Icon donncha
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    Won’t be an issue soon as it looks likes those pesky human rights will a little more skewed:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50372932

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    No plans to explain how you managed to read “held to account for criminal actions” as “the Army should get a free pass” then?

    Because of your inclusion of the false claim that one side is being hounded and the other is being let off within your wider post. As has been explained, this is a frequent mis-truth used to justify the army getting a free pass for possible crimes. Surely that’s not that difficult to grasp but if you struggle with a basics of English then perhaps you should address that first, leaving the adult conversations to people with a more firm grasp of the language. 😉

    looks like sooty is out for a fight!

    Not at all, in fact I’m keen on the complete opposite.

    I’ve served in NI, I was at Bessbrook Mill when Stephen Restorick was murdered by Bernard McGinn, then read how McGinn laughed in court when his sentence was passed, knowing that he’d be released under the GFA.

    I don’t want Northern Ireland to ever return to those sad times, but the use of divisive language as displayed in this thread and the desire to see justice upheld, whilst ignoring the disparity in which said justice is sought, will only serve in picking at barely healed wounds.

    As has been said, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as seen in SA, would have been the way to draw a line under the sad events of The Troubles. Unfortunately the GFA has failings, and those failings are preventing everyone moving on.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    sootyandjim

    Member
    looks like sooty is out for a fight!

    Not at all, in fact I’m keen on the complete opposite.

    I’ve served in NI, I was at Bessbrook Mill when Stephen Restorick was murdered by Bernard McGinn, then read how McGinn laughed in court when his sentence was passed, knowing that he’d be released under the GFA.

    I don’t want Northern Ireland to ever return to those sad times, but the use of divisive language as displayed in this thread and the desire to see justice upheld, whilst ignoring the disparity in which said justice is sought, will only serve in picking at barely healed wounds.

    As has been said, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as seen in SA, would have been the way to draw a line under the sad events of The Troubles. Unfortunately the GFA has failings, and those failings are preventing everyone moving on.

    I don’t necessarily disagree that things are best left to lie, but ultimately, truth and reconciliation couldn’t have worked at the time, as lets face it, the British state aren’t exactly up for divulging the depth of their murky role, even today. So by default truth and reconciliation wouldn’t have worked, you need all sides.

    As for preventing things moving on, it’s really hasn’t, the GFA for all it’s fault has been a massive success so far.

    Asides some irrelevant fringe groups, the argument is very much in the political domain at the minute, imo. That’s definitely moving on.

    Still a long long, time to go before it’s all settled though.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    I’ve served in NI, I was at Bessbrook Mill when Stephen Restorick was murdered by Bernard McGinn, then read how McGinn laughed in court when his sentence was passed, knowing that he’d be released under the GFA.

    On this point, that’s a fair enough grievance, but there’s been many republican and unionist prisioners jailed for their part, how many soldiers have served time in comparison.. not very many.

    British soldiers have been well protected by the British state. Given the depth of collusion, infiltration and their overall involvement it’s really just lip service that is getting paid to their crimes.

    mrmo
    Member

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings

    When the UK state bombs a foreign country via paramilitaries and refuses to tell the truth. but then again the UK has plenty of history on that.

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