I really need to pull my finger out then! I do all that above and more and I’m nowhere near 70, let alone 80 🙂

This is a long thread, quite existential ! – who knew so many devs on here.

Have been a dev since 85, never out of work except by choice, went freelance in 90 and never looked back. Freelance is not without its downsides, but the upsides are saying what you think and not having to worry about your career. You might get bounced for that, but I never have. No management path, no managing people etc for me. I like writing code and its worked for me.

Like all jobs you do have to sit back and decide when to move on – if it’s not making you happy, make a change. There is no way of knowing before hand whether that will be for the better or the worse, but you have to make it. You also have to look hard at your character – am I abrasive, am i employable, am I taking on work I can’t complete, am I fitting in with a team, have I been pigeonholed etc, which can be hard.

Have never regretted a day of being a dev, it’s a different day every day. If there is a new skill you think you might like – learn it in your own time and find a way to make it work on your current job. Don’t take time out to do this, do it while getting paid.

Specialise for the big bucks, but be a jack of all trades for consistent employment. I learnt perl soon after it came out – have used it in almost every role over the years, where others who know just one thing/environment struggle to do simple tasks.

A few jobs I have stayed on for the money longer than I should have, not many.

If you want money, target the skills and industry that get you there – banking and services etc, if you want job satisfaction, find what you like and try to do that.

Programming is treated like a science, but it’s really an art form, self improvement, learning from others, achieving small goals is the key to enjoying it. What new language have you picked up in the last 6 months ?, if none then you are standing still.

Finally, stay away from Windows, that shit will kill you.

Does anyone have any advice on what languages/stack would be best to learn for a good all-round kind of knowledge? I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work.

Python is a great start – but don’t learn it slowly, learn it quick. Do you watch tv in the evening ?, watch it whilst programming – find a definite task, and make that happen. There are lots of learning resources online, coderdojo for example. Dev work needs motivation, there is no substitute for competence, and that only comes from time invested. Learn perl/bash etc for automation, then automation tools. The people who impress are the ones who spend time doing, be that guy !

Finally, stay away from Windows, that shit will kill you.

*looks up from Visual Basic code* I have no idea what you mean *dribbles onto keyboard*

@dazh – your job sounds a lot like mine !

I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work

Pick an automated test framework and learn it; choose one that aligns with the tech your devs use; that way if you have any problems you can lean on them for support / assistance.

Enthusiasm and continuous improvement are the key things to be a successful dev. Being comfortable across a range of languages. My background is primarily C#/.net; but over my last three roles I’ve has to learn/use Kotlin, Node.js, Swift, Vue, React, Angular (and probably more besides) – plus all the supporting tech – Azure, Docker, Kubernetes, AWS, Serverless, Cloudformation – the list is never ending really !

Also; learn to use git (or whatever source control system you use) properly; and pay attention to your workflows. What is “done” – how do things get merged; how do you manage release cycles; CI/CD. It’s a pretty broad field !

*looks up from Visual Basic code* I have no idea what you mean *dribbles onto keyboard*

Tell me about it – user-facing part of my current stuff runs on Win10 (after we moved it from XP/WES) and is a heady mix of C#, C++ and VB6! That’s right, not even VB.Net, proper old VB6 😲

One of the other issues with safety-critical stuff is that all change is risk, so lots of very long life legacy stuff to wade through.

Programming is treated like a science

Yup, it ain’t no science, it is barely even engineering. I would not say art though, ‘craft’ is a better term. The best coders are artisans not engineers.

One last thing – if you are a test/QA engineer and you would like to be a dev, read this link.

It’s only a small thing, but dev’s can be picky, and if we come across someone who knows the difference between these things, and knows which one they are doing at the time, its sure to be remembered.

https://www.functionize.com/blog/quality-assurance-vs-quality-control-vs-testing-whats-the-difference/

Don’t try to explain this to management – it’s too late for them.

Does anyone have any advice on what languages/stack would be best to learn for a good all-round kind of knowledge? I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work.

I made that jump. But I was only QA for a little while (< 1 year).

I’d say learn one language well rather than try to tick every box for everything, and try to choose the language for the kind of work that you want to do to start with. After you’ve made the transition, it’ll be easier to move around.

Interesting stuff haloric. Started learning Vue framework about 6 months ago and worked on some small reverse engineering projects.

I am always keen to learn new stuff but finding time outside work I do struggle with as I want .1 spend time away from a screen and have a life. I would not leave a computer if I was coding in the evening as well .2 learn other things. Usually related such as electronics or engineering.

I will say that all my jobs have been pigeon holed by this has been the companies as a hole, although I have tried shoehorn in other stuff.

Edit: I should add I have always tried to learn new stuff but only had the chance to use it once or twice.

What new language have you picked up in the last 6 months ?, if none then you are standing still.

I don’t think you need to learn a new language every 6 months. If that’s what you enjoy, sure. But you should be comfortable that you are learning new “things”. There’s plenty you can pick up that isn’t a new language – docker, kubernetes, kafka, ci/cd, serverless, etc. The list is pretty endless.

Yup, it ain’t no science, it is barely even engineering.

The problem is, it *should* be engineering.

Whilst there are Windows devs on here – how easily can I knock up a noddy Windows GUI app with fields on screen that does basically nothing? We need a mock Windows based app to test our automation software.

very quickly if it is jus form with no logic and no comms

Whilst there are Windows devs on here – how easily can I knock up a noddy Windows GUI app with fields on screen that does basically nothing? We need a mock Windows based app to test our automation software.

Should be able to knock something together quickly with Electron – https://www.electronjs.org/

Salary discussion is a bit meaningless when no 2 organisations agree what a ‘senior dev’ is

Very true, I’ve separately held positions titled software engineer and senior dev and I don’t consider myself either (I’m not a programmer)

My job is more akin to the sticking bits of Lego together that someone mentioned earlier.

If you are just using standard windows controls then you can knock up a Windows Forms interface pretty quickly in Visual Studio. It’s just drag and drop really.

Slightly longer if you want WPF/XAML based.

A LOT longer if you actually want it done right.

The problem is, it *should* be engineering.

Not happened yet

Whilst there are Windows devs on here …..

get visual studio community, make new c# winforms project, you’ll probably figure the rest out

Not sure JS will cut it. The reason for doing this is that the app had problems finding the fields in a Java app.

I might try downloading VS and maybe there’s a sample app or two.

The problem is, it *should* be engineering.

Indeed. I’m trying to make the case at my place that it is engineering, and that it shouldn’t be treated any differently. To the civil and building engineers it’s just writing code to do random stuff, which is fine and they should be perfectly capable of doing that themselves (it’s amazing how many arent!). But if they want to build a scalable production level web/database applicatiion with a maintainable codebase they need to get professionals to do it. I always ask them if they would trust me to design the superstructure of a building after a few months training, because that’s what they are expecting to be able to do by messing around with python a bit.

Seems a reasonable point to say we’re recruiting for loads of different technical skill sets. As I post under my real name, a cursory glance over the social network that Links people In should point you to who I work for, and thus our jobs postings. We are a consultancy though, so above and beyond technical skills you’re expected to be mobile and client facing. The trade off is you’ll get a London focused salary and can live anywhere in the country.

Happy to receive PMs either through here, or the aforementioned social networking site.

There’s plenty you can pick up that isn’t a new language – docker, kubernetes, kafka, ci/cd, serverless, etc. The list is pretty endless

Potentially more important than learning new syntax.

I would guess barely 10% of my job was writing code when I joined the current place and even less now.

Learning is weighted accordingly (at least that’s the idea).

Yup, it ain’t no science, it is barely even engineering.

That really does depend on how you play it. And the place you are working for. And the client’s budget. Some want an engineered product, and some want a bodgy bit of sellotape to stick stuff together.

Salary discussion is a bit meaningless when no 2 organisations agree what a ‘senior dev’ is.

Yes.

In Cambridge, which is it’s own tech hub, I’d expect you’d find very few SW Engineers on less than £50k (with a few years experience) and quite a few (as in 100s) on £70k-£100k. We have ARM, CSR, Microsoft Research, Google R&D, Amazon R&D, loads of small companies and consultancies etc, so a very competitive market. Some of the larger salaries are in the smaller companies as they have to buy talent to compete with the more glamorous locals eg Amazon / Microsoft / CSR / ARM etc.

Flip side is a small 3 bed ‘railway cottage’ terraced house will set you back £700k, so you won’t necessarily feel ‘rich’ on those salaries. With a sub 1 hour direct train to the City, we have London suburb house prices.

Some want an engineered product, and some want a bodgy bit of sellotape to stick stuff together.

And some have no idea what they want.

Just chiming in.. self employed, turnover a decent amount.. not london wages but I stop working when I’m about to hit the VAT threshold. Mainly php, larvel, js / typescript, wordpress type stuff. Tons of holidays but usually with my laptop and a project on hand..

I really like the tech and the learning.. but I’m about 10 years in and getting fairly fed up of being on my own. My main issue is I’d really like a business partner.

I’ve tried employing people.. thats not for me!

I’d say stop working for an employer and give self employment a bash for probably a lot of missing flexibility.

Flip side is a small 3 bed ‘railway cottage’ terraced house will set you back £700k

Yeah that’s partly what I was getting at with the life choices thing. I’m in Northumberland, 10 miles from Newcastle, and our detached corner plot 3-bed house with garage, shed and large garden was only £295k. Plus I can cycle to work in 20 minutes along a car-free Sustrans route and get a pint in the local for £3ish

I speak to other devs in London who get paid a LOT more, but also pay three times that for a smallish flat and spend two or three hours commuting every day.

Though as others point out: that consideration changes a bit now remote working is suddenly a lot more acceptable.

Though as others point out: that consideration changes a bit now remote working is suddenly a lot more acceptable.

Yep, our latest recruit (SW Dev) doesn’t live in Cambridge and has no intention of over doing so, but he still gets Cambridge salary! Only ever see him via Teams meetings…

Yep, our latest recruit (SW Dev) doesn’t live in Cambridge and has no intention of over doing so, but he still gets Cambridge salary!

I’ve seen quite a few adverts on linkedin recently for london tech firms offering (almost) 100% remote working and I’ve been sorely tempted. The gap between london and the regions is closing but there’s still a distinct difference.

I’ve seen quite a few adverts on linkedin recently for london tech firms offering (almost) 100% remote working and I’ve been sorely tempted.

Apply for a few. Can’t hurt.

(I’m starting a new position soon).

Yep love it. I’m a front end developer. I actually love new tech in front end especially react development. Not much office politics where I work (digital agency). Someone I manage recently left and landed himself a 75k react dev job after being with us a year!! Crazy

And yes I feel the landscape has changed now. Many firms offering fully remote working. We decided to move to Wales and I’ll be 1 or 2 days a week in the office in Bristol when things settle down

The gap between london and the regions is closing but there’s still a distinct difference.

There is still stuff that requires on site people such as the financial stuff. Most of my peers at uni went into quant style roles with mega hours and mega money. They were on 80+k 15 years ago at 25.

Trouble is they want to pay senior devs 40-45k, mid level devs 30-35k and grads/juniors 25-30k, which in my opinion is a lot short of what the market is demanding. Am I right or wrong?

In Bristol a front end dev can expect
Senior 55k
Mid – 43
Lead – 65k

If you know react native yoy can expect more on top of that. Senior around 65-75k

I find it interesting when people mention learning react as a skill. To be a good or competent react developer you will also need to be a good front end developer. Thats understanding all the browser API’s, css + methodologies, accessibility, javascript, design patterns, http, rest/graphql, immutability, OOP, functional programming , performance, svg,

mostly summed up here:

https://roadmap.sh/frontend

https://roadmap.sh/react

Last month I also had a J R Heartly moment and found a book a co-authored back then and managed to buy a copy!

Oddly I learnt to program from the BBC Micro version of that.

It was a great book 🙂
(Didn’t have a bbc or any computer at that time)

I don’t think i’ve ever had stellar pay other than when i was contracting but I’ve had better pay/benefits than most for a looong time.

I’m currently doing IOS and android Phone stuff and it’s great fun 🙂

Currently also working remotely from somewhere sunnier than Bristol/Barf.

I’m wondering how difficult it will be, post-Brexit, to work for a UK firm from Spain. I imagine tax and billing might be complicated, and I don’t want to lose my right to a Spanish pension after paying into the system for so many years… but it’s quite tempting as the UK IT market is definitely stronger than here, and the interesting jobs look a lot better paid!

It was a great book

It was terrible as a teaching aid! Which was a shame as it was the official book as part of the overall BBC Micro programme. My father’s company published it, which was how I got involved. He was ashamed of the book, as it was well below the standard of everything else the National Extension College published back then, but the manuscript arrived very late and they had a deadline to meet, so there wasn’t time to propely re-write it as a decent learning aid.

I was just paid to adapt it from BBC Basic to QBasic (IIRC) on the IBM PC.

£525 IIRC, which wasn’t that bad back in 1987.

My father then re-wrote 30 Hour Basic and published a better written version himself..

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/cgi/archive.pl?type=Books&author=Richard%20Freeman

I’ll be 1 or 2 days a week in the office in Bristol when things settle down

It’s a weird world at the moment. I’ve not been in the office more than 1 or 2 days this past eight months. I could be living on Orkney.

We had a whole ZX81 for the entire school 🙂

I’m wondering how difficult it will be, post-Brexit, to work for a UK firm from Spain. I imagine tax and billing might be complicated, and I don’t want to lose my right to a Spanish pension after paying into the system for so many years… but it’s quite tempting as the UK IT market is definitely stronger than here, and the interesting jobs look a lot better paid!

We had an email from our HR director saying that with immediate effect we can’t work out of our “home country”, because of the legal, insurance and health cover issues.